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Paul Bellamy
9/9/2007 1:43:16 PM | Continuing from the Hard Seventeen thread.......
I haven't found a photo of the nose art, or even of the aircraft at all in the NA Photos, so will have to work from the aircraft batch numbers.
B17G-35-VE. 42-97836 to 42-97935.
Built at Plant 1A, Burbank, CA.
(now the main car park for the Burbank-Glendale International Airport terminal.)
Delivered to USAAF at Tulsa, 21st March 1944.
Assigned to 401BG 8th June 1944.
Colour Scheme:
Vega stopped painting B17s during Block 20-VE, so '869 was a natural metal aircraft.
Tail Turret:
Vega introduced the Cheyenne Turret during 35-VE. '869 was the 66th aircraft of the 99 in the block, so if she wasn't built with one, she would be likely to have been fitted with one at Tulsa or on delivery to the UK.
Waist Windows:
I'm not sure when Vega switched to the one-piece waist windows, but it was after Block 35-VE, so '869 would have had the 3-barred pattern.
I will have to check when the staggered window spacing was introduced, but the Academy kit allows either version.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
9/9/2007 4:22:19 PM | Thank you Paul , that is great information.
The only picture i have is with the crew knelling under the aircraft.
So you only see her belly and 2 engines
_______
 My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Phoenix
9/10/2007 10:08:16 AM | Andy,
Aluminium finish you will need black letters and numbers they are available from Hannants as follows
Carpena Decals CA72061 US code letters 45 degree
Carpena Decals CA72062 US code letters 45 degree
those two sheets are for numbers and letters and should cover all sizes and Hannants post world wide they also provide clear decal sheets for laser and inkjet printers. I may have some spare black triangles but with other group identity letters which could be adapted if you are struggling can't help with nose art though.
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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EDanaII
9/10/2007 10:09:18 AM | Regarding the decals, Andy, like I said before, I'll gladly help, but here's some points you'll need to consider first. For starters, I used special decal paper for ink jet printers, this paper is not cheap. Mind you, it's not expensive either, but the inefficient use of this paper could get expensive. To manage that potential cost, I printed the decals on regular paper first and compared that to the plane in order to determine if I got the right size or not. Only after I was certain did I then print using the decal sheets. Keep in mind that, once you use these decal sheets, even if you only use a small portion, it's that much harder to use the rest of a sheet.
If you use only the squadron emblem (Triangle S) and bomb markers, this shouldn't be a problem, as they are already fitted to my 1/48th scale plane. Downsizing them to 1/72 shouldn't be a problem, but I can't guarantee you that there will be no issues.
If you actually do locate nose art, it becomes that much more problematic.
For those reasons, and since I live on the other side of the pond, my printing the decals and sending them to you could result in huge time delays, especially if, for whatever reason, the decals need to be reprinted. I would, therefore, suggest that you find someone over there who can print these decals for you.
Also consider some of the suggestions that Paul made to me, you might want to paint the squadron emblem as opposed to using a decal. Consider that, when I did so, some of the black and yellow of the tail stripe still managed to show through underneath my white decal sheets.
All that said, I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm still more than willing to help you, I just want you to understand some of the constraints. 🙂
@ Paul
When you say you checked the NA photos, I assume you mean the ones located on this site. Is it possible that the real National Archives might have some photos that are not listed and that they might have the nose art for Maid to Order? Just wondering out loud.
Ed.
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EDanaII
9/10/2007 12:12:20 PM | Oh, while I'm thinking about it, Andy, I was talking with my father yesterday about what you are doing and the conversation turned to Gelsenkirchen, where the Maid to Order was lost. Dad was on that mission, he remembers seeing a couple of bombers going down, and being concerned over the fact that no parachutes came out of the circling bombers. One of those bombers may have been the Maid to Order. Unfortunately, he doesn't remember much more than that. Still, if you have any questions to ask him, I'll pass them on. I can't guarantee you that he'll remember anything, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
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swinny
9/10/2007 2:29:03 PM | Hello Ed
Thank you , i understand what you mean.
I don't think it will be a problem to find someone over here who can print the decals for me.
Is there any possibility that i could get a copy of your decals, so i can try to resize them to 1/72 ?
I don't know which program you used to make them , but maybe you could send me the example by mail.
I hope i don't ask the impossible , if so please say so
And the story about your dad maybe seeing the Maid go down , made me shiver , what a coincident.
@ phoenix Thank you i just took a look at their site and they do really have a lot, i think i will shop there later.
There aren't any big stores here in the Netherlands which sell plastic model kits.
I am building kits now for more than 20 years and they are all WW2 planes in scale 1/72 , but this will be the first time that i make a B-17
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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swinny
9/10/2007 2:38:46 PM | I have another question , if i may continue on this thread.
I also bought a control tower made by airfix.
My intension is to make it similar to the one on Deenethorpe.
But i cant find any good picture of the tower.
For example there is a kind of shed on top of the flat roof in my model , but i cant find that on any picture , is that correct.
The pictures i found are the ones made a long time after the war , so maybe the " shed " is already gone there or it didn't exist ?
What i do see is a part of a brick wall ?
Here is a picture of the model from airfix :
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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EDanaII
9/11/2007 12:04:07 PM | Here's an image of the tower from the 401st site:
Paul is also doing a "Virtual Deenethorpe" project, I assume he can provide some more clues.
As to decals, here ya go:
This is the Triangle S I used, but I scaled it down for you to 1/72 scale @ 300 dpi. To create it, I simply scanned my original decals into my computer, filled it out completely in black, and then used the font provided by Paul in the Hard Seventeen thread to place the S within the triangle.
Here is the Mission Markers I used, also scaled to 1/72 @ 300 dpi:
 :
I didn't like the way these markers turned out, they stretched too far behind the main wing. I'm working on a second model now, when I place the mission markers again, I'm likely going to use this image instead:
These I did myself. I simply drew the yellow bomb, and then repeated that image over the black surface. Obviously, whatever you decide to do for your model, your markers will be different.
I'm providing the next decals (all 1/72) not because you can use them but to help with sizing, since these are specific to my model, not yours:
Serial:
J under serial number:
Squadron:
The last decal, FYI, did not go on exactly as is. I wish I had kept that image too, but... oops. Since there was insufficient space to place the decal as-is between the tail and the waist window and since the actual image showed letters that were compressed, that's exactly what I did to the image, I compressed it horizontally to make it fit.
BTW, the images I posted are JPGs. These may not be the best format for actually printing decals. I also have the images in TIF and BMP. If you want those, let me know which ones and what format.
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Paul Bellamy
9/11/2007 12:50:20 PM | Here's a quick snap of the computer model of Deenethorpe tower, minus it's cement rendering:
To be honest, the Airfix tower kit bears no resemblance to the tower at Deenethorpe, or any other WWII airfield in the UK.
Flightpath Models now do an etched brass kit of the correct type, or you could start from scratch from card.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
9/11/2007 12:58:05 PM | Hey Paul,
Got Flightpath airfield buildings myself not for a modelling novice I think!!
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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swinny
9/11/2007 3:39:54 PM | @ Ed
Thank you very much , i copied it and put it in to word.
Looks like the exact size , i will check it tomorrow because it is 01:00 midnight in the Netherlands now.
And i wonder if you have any photos of your progress in building the plane, i try to look at you album but the site didn't work
@ Paul
Yes thank you that looks great and now i see the difference between the airfix model.
But i am not giving up , i am going to try it with that model.
I have a lot of scratch lying here , so it will work out, i hope
Can you tel me what color the cement was ?
and when i look at this picture :
I see FLYING CONTROL was that painted later or is it from that time ?
And then the bricks on top of the roof , are they also from a later time ?
Sorry for all the questions .
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
9/11/2007 5:35:59 PM | Hi Andy,
The bricks on the roof are from the 1950's, so can be ignored.
There was a frame holding the runway number boards there during WWII.
The words FLYING CONTROL were certainly there by VE Day, but I'm unsure when they first appeared.
The cement rendering was naturally a pale grey, but may have been painted a mid-green colour. I'll get back to you on that.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
9/12/2007 2:57:36 AM | Hello Paul
I found a site were people build the airport in scale.
Maybe you already know it , but it is great to see.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/4762/8af/8th-af.html
They used the words FLYING CONTROL on it.
I tried to contact them , but the emails came back to me
Andy(/url)
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Phoenix
9/12/2007 3:56:19 AM | Hi Andy/Paul/Ed
Just been on that diorama site Andy mentioned, very impressive indeed I don't think I'll bother building anymore models now I'll just print off the photos from that diorama, not sure about the use of British fuel bowsers and ambulances at that stage of the war, no doubt Paul will put me in my place!!! Anyone want to buy any models???
All the best
Dale(retired modeller)
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
9/12/2007 6:51:35 AM | Andy,
The current e-mail contact for IPMS/Atlanta seems to be Bob Downie via grdeyed AT comcast.net
Hope that helps,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
9/12/2007 7:56:44 AM | Thanks Paul
The email is on his way and did not come back.
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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EDanaII
9/12/2007 9:14:57 AM | I just checked out the link provide by swinny too. Wow. Deenethorpe of all places. 🙂
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swinny
9/26/2007 4:13:28 AM | Hello.
I want to give a update and i have some questions.
maybe someone could help me.
The control tower has been modified with a lot of scratch.
I know it still isn't great and there are some difference between the real tower and the airfix , but i am very pleased with the result.
But i do have some questions, does anyone know how the sign on the roof looked like.
I know it has to be number 05 ( why i don't know ) but did it had a color or was it just pale white with black numbers ?
Was there anything else on the roof ?
I know its a lot of questions, i hope someone has an answer.
If anybody want to correct my , please do so
_______
My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
9/26/2007 10:03:47 AM | Hi Andy,
The boards on the roof were to indicate which runway was in use at that time, the one which was pointing into the wind.
The runway headings, depending on which direction you were approaching, at Deenethorpe were:
Main Runway: 05 or 23
No2 Runway: 10 or 28
No3 Runway: 15 or 33
They would have been yellow with black numbers.
Also on the roof were the wind speed and direction indicator, and at the centre front was a hooded light, the one at Twinwoods is red. The unused runway boards also seem to have been stacked up there near to the wooden frame that held the ones in use.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
9/26/2007 12:23:19 PM | Waugh Paul, thanks.
But i am a little confused now.
Did the sign had 2 or 3 boards and do they all have the same number?
or did one side have number 3 and the other number 10 or did they all had number 3 ?
how did you like my scratch building by the way ?
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
9/26/2007 12:37:39 PM | Andy,
Good job with the kit-bashing, it's a lot more like the right shape.
Regards the boards, all 3 would have had the same number. They are that size and colour so as to be visible by pilots circling the airfield.
The designs were standard, and were part of a number of different visual indicators to show the conditions at the airfield. The other indicators were on the Signals Square in front of the tower, or hung from a mast nearby.
If you look through the mission lists on the 401st website you'll see the runway of the day shown on the takeoff plans.
For instance, the wind vane visible top right in the following photo is pointing North-Northeast, so to take off or land into the wind you would use runway heading 05, which is what the boards show.
Another view of the boards on the tower, albeit at a distance:
I've done some more work on the computer model of the tower, showing the boards stored on the roof. I forgot the backs were painted black, so have corrected that. I've not put the third board back on the frame yet though.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
9/27/2007 6:19:56 AM | Paul , what should i do without you.
Thank you very very much , this is clear for me now.
I will start working on that right away.
I know the take off was from runway 23 on that sadly day, mission Gelsenkirchen , so i will juse number 23 .
Really , Thank you
Andy
p.s.
i just took a look at the twinwood site, wauw i think i will visit that next year, its great.
i saw you on the WWII Reenacting.co.uk Forums and i think what you all are doing is really great.
_______
My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Phoenix
9/27/2007 6:35:44 AM | Andy
Love the tower you done a good job I was about to throw my Airfix tower in the bin and spend serious money on the flightpath version but I think I'll try your way first!
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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swinny
9/27/2007 6:45:33 AM | Thank you Dale.
It was fun doing that, but you need a lot of scratch 😃
Good luck whit yours
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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swinny
9/28/2007 6:21:42 AM | Well i couldn't have done it without the pictures , Paul
Thank you.
this is the result , i am happy with it.
_______
My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
9/28/2007 8:35:44 AM | Good job Andy. 😃
Paul Bellamy
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Paul Bellamy
9/28/2007 2:38:56 PM | I've done a bit more to the computer model.......
I've added the Signals Square with the appropriate signals:
40 foot black square with 1 foot white border, 50 feet in front of the tower.
White T to indicate wind direction.
Airfield code letters DP for Deenethorpe.
White dumb-bell to indicate "Keep on paved surfaces".
Red square with single yellow diagonal to indicate "Take care while taxiying."
Now to add the signal mast....... 😉
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
9/28/2007 9:34:46 PM | Paul,
Have been watching this project and just wanted to say I admire your dedication and skill.
Don Byers
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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EDanaII
10/1/2007 9:38:08 AM | Yep, gotta give Paul credit where credit is due, he`s always there, above and beyond the call of duty. Kudos, Paul.
@ swinny
Good job, Andy. I`m jealous. Now, could you do a snow covered field in Grimbergen for me? 😉
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swinny
10/12/2007 3:50:01 AM | Well , i think it is finished, but you never know.
There are models that i made years ago and i am still correcting them.
The picture isn't great but its an impression.
I also received the decals for the Maid to order.
I found someone who could print them for me, so thanks to him and Ed i am ready now to begin.
But i still haven't found a B-17 from academy so i have to look harder.
I have a option to use the Hasegawa but i am not sure the model is correct.
The name "Maid to order " isn't correct but there isn't any reference so i had to make it up myself.
I search for such a long time now , that i don't think there will ever come a picture of it.
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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swinny
10/26/2007 4:05:05 PM | Finally the B-17G academy arrived.
So i can start building.
It looks great , the only downside is that they are low on decals.
_______
My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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EDanaII
10/28/2007 12:12:38 PM | Go Swinny! Do the 401st proud. 😉
Looking closer at your decal photos, I notice that the serial number has a leading 4. I know that this 4, even though it was part of the serial number, didn't appear on the Hard Seventeen. I think this is true for other planes, but I can't say for certain.
Maybe Paul will weigh in on this...
Just FYI.
Ed.
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swinny
10/28/2007 12:27:05 PM | Thank you Ed , i`ll do my best
About the number 4 , thats very interesting, its no problem to cut it of , but i really would like to know if its true.
Its a great model to build, i almost have the cockpit ready.
Lost of details , hope you will see anything of it when the model will be glued together.
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
10/28/2007 7:40:27 PM | Regards the S/N on the tail, Ed is correct that the leading 4 wasn't marked.
For examples see the following photo's.
42-40002:
42-32012:
42-37835:
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
10/29/2007 5:33:35 PM | Thank you Paul and Ed for clearing that up.
I have a new question.
The waste gunners.
With my model i can choose which place the left waste gunner will come.
So there is an option to put them together side by side or ( i don't know how to write this in English ) so i made a simple drawing
The left side has not been cut out yet , so i have to decide
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
10/29/2007 6:25:07 PM | Hi Andy,
I've still been working on finding out when the Vega production line began fitting the staggered waist windows.
I knew it was probably after 35-VE, and current opinion indicates it was either 45-VE or 50-VE.
42-97869, being a block B17G-35-VE should therefore have opposed, not staggered, windows of the 3-panel type as seen below.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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swinny
10/30/2007 1:52:02 AM | Paul, you always have an answer , whatever we ask you.
Thank you for looking that up , so opposed it will be.
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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swinny
12/17/2007 3:13:00 PM | Well it has been a while , but the MAID TO ORDER is almost ready.
there are a few things i have to work on , but i wanted to show it to you all.
Its 1:72 from Academy and it was a great model to work on.
Putting on his name "Maid to order" was a very strange feeling for me, it was a great feeling.
I know there isn't any photo of the Maid so i used my own idea for the name.
I hope you like it.
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
12/17/2007 3:53:36 PM | Looks great Andy!
Paul Bellamy
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EDanaII
12/18/2007 3:24:43 PM | Lookin' good, Andy! I knew you'd do the 401st proud!
BTW, I promise not to tell, if you don't, about the Maid to Order nose art being exact. It will be our little secret. 😉
Ed.
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swinny
12/18/2007 4:58:52 PM | Ok thank you Ed , i hope one day there will be a photo of the Maid , who knows.
Andy
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My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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MaryAlice
2/10/2010 11:23:34 AM | Swinny...just wanted you to know i finally got a chance to read over this thread entirely, and wanted to say again...NICE job! Plane looks GREAT!
I started in on some paint last night on mine, and will try and get some pics up this evening on my build thread. But again...VERY nice!!!
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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