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mmacy4
10/15/2009 12:23:46 AM | I have been trying to research more information on my grandfather Alex Becker. He flew under Martin on Ice Cold Katy. My dad has his jacket and it looks like he flew 60 flights but on that plane I do not show the Martin crew flying that many flights. There is also a patch of the Eager Beaver Squadron, not sure what this is for. If anyone has any information. I wanted to try and gather as much information as I could and put it together for my dad this is really important to him. If anyone can direct me I would appreciate. Thanks!
Misty
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donkirk
10/18/2009 3:19:15 PM | Maybe we need to team up and gather others who are interested. I'm facing the same problem -- my brother flew with the McCord crew through July, 1944, at least part of the time on Ice Cold Katy, but there seems to be very little documentation of crew and plane assignments before August, 1944. Don Byers has been working to fill in the gaps; he has sent me some additional Katy missions from before August, 1944, but the Martin crew is not listed. I don't know who else may be looking for crew assignments before August; maybe others reading this may want to comment or know more than we do.
The earliest Martin mission in Katy seems to be February, 1945. Do you know when his missions started? I assume you've seen the crew picture and information on the 410BG.com web site.
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donaldbyers
10/18/2009 5:25:47 PM | Misty,
The first this I would ask is when was your Grandfather first in England by mid 1944 - 1945 the requirement to complete a tour of duty was 35 missions. So if he was on a second tour that could account for all the missions but not with the same crew or aircraft. Also if you could email me some photos of the Jacket that would be great!!!!
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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mmacy4
10/23/2009 9:10:10 PM | Thank you for replying. The next time I go over to my parents I will pull everything out that we know/have on my grandpa. We really don't know much, Dad says grandpa would never talk about the war and at one time we had his 401st blue book but he wanted it back and it was burned with everything else when his house burned down. From what I know we have his coat, his flag, and he received a medal. It will be a couple of weeks before I will be able to get over there, when I do though I will take pictures of his jacket and email them. If you guys have any pictures of the plane I would love to have you email them to me. Also I would like to find another copy of the blue book. I missed the one on ebay but did find another copy but it's from oversees I have never bought anything that way was a little hesitant. My dad really wants this though. Thanks for your help!
Misty
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donaldbyers
10/24/2009 10:26:07 AM | Nose Art picture sent.
Damaged Ice Cold Katy picture sent. 25 May 1944 was flown by McCord.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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Nickel52
11/19/2009 1:44:34 AM | So glad to have found this page.My dad,JR McMurray,better known as Richard or Dick,was the co-pilot of Ice Cold Katy.He died in late '84.but his stories,when I could pry them out of him,were vivid and wonderful,as well as scary.His DFC and Air Medal(twice) have a permanent place near me.I've always been fascinated with the war ( I was born in 1952),and that era.Unfortunately,I've never connected with anyone from those days (although a friend he flew with stateside became my dentist!) and have always rather haphazardly rooted about for information.And yes,the internet is our friend.I'd be happy to communicate with any and all of you about those precious memories.Regards,Sam McMurray
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donkirk
11/19/2009 6:22:06 PM | "Nickel52":
So glad to have found this page.My dad,JR McMurray,better known as Richard or Dick,was the co-pilot of Ice Cold Katy.He died in late '84.but his stories,when I could pry them out of him,were vivid and wonderful,as well as scary.His DFC and Air Medal(twice) have a permanent place near me.I've always been fascinated with the war ( I was born in 1952),and that era. Regards,Sam McMurray
I just started reading this group after I spent several hours looking for new information about the 612th Bomb Squadron, so I'm sitting at my computer with a list of crew names on my desk. The crew copilot on that list is Capt. J. R.. McMurray; if he is the same J. R. McMurray you mention, the pilot is Capt. Richard D. McCord -- my brother's crew. Don Byers has been a big help in getting together some information about the plane and the crew -- I think he posted some of the new mission information in the thread I began in this group. I now have about nine or ten crew missions dated, and my brother told me just last week that he believes they flew twenty missions in Ice Cold Katy out of the 29, 30, or 31 total missions they flew. I have several confirmed that they flew in other planes, so if we can pick up all 20 Katy missions we may be closing in on the complete list.
AFAIK most of the Martin missions were after the McCord crew had finished their quota; if your father stayed on for some reason the Martin missions seem to be pretty well documented.
Glad to have you join us here.
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donaldbyers
11/19/2009 7:20:13 PM | I have updated McCord's crew data, at this time I was unable to fill in the month of July as the CD's I have show the crew but doesn't show the aircraft flown. So for now that is as much as I can do. http://www.401bg.com/history/crew.asp?cid=10601
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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donkirk
11/20/2009 12:50:50 AM | Don, I truly appreciate all you've done already -- it's been a great help. I'm looking into some other areas of interest (to me, at least) and will email you soon. I'm looking forward to the server change and hope there's some way I can help out little by little. I'm thrilled by the coincidence of a son of a McCord/Katy crew member showing up, and hope he's equally excited to have found us.
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Nickel52
11/20/2009 11:55:47 PM | Thanks to both Don and Donald for your replies.To the best of my recollection,I think my father returned to the states with the McCord crew,those that were left,that is.And he was relieved of his bankroll after getting Mickey Finned in Liverpool(?) and awoke on the Queen Mary.I also recall him saying that they flew fewer than the requisite number of flights because they had flown lead on more than one occasion.Does that tally with your records? Also,somewhere ( I just moved) I have a diary he kept during his time in England.I will endeavor to find it and transcribe it for all of you.Regards,Sam McMurray
P.S. Yes,JR McMurray and Richard were one and the same.I believe that's him in the center of a photo examining damage done to the plane.
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donkirk
11/21/2009 1:33:21 AM | Yes on the mission count. My brother was giving me so much information so fast over the phone I couldn't take good notes (I plan to talk to him regularly to nail down some of the things I still don't understand). As I understood him, the mission quota was being raised and they had been told they would have to stay over for the additional five (?) missions, but they found out that the lead crews only had to do, I think, 25 missions and they had already done that many including several as lead plane, at least once as lead for the entire Eighth Air Force. I know, too, that after they stopped flying "regular" missions they flew several more in radar and pathfinder ships (or are those the same thing?).
Did your father know what happened to any of the other crew members? Our nephew thinks my brother may be the last survivor, but I don't know what he's basing that on. And did your father talk about any of the damage the plane took? My brother told me they lost a propeller on one mission, and had to do some fast maneuvering to shake it loose before the plane lost stability, and another time a bomb got stuck in the bay and gave them a scare. And from messages in these forums I know on another mission they came home with a feathered propeller, a bad oil leak, and a cylinder badly cracked. There's also a picture of the plane on a mission in late August of 1944 with a wing tip showing obvious repairs.
I'm trying to find out more about Capt. McCord, too, but so far not having much luck. My brother says he's was a West Point graduate from a military family, but beyond that the trail is pretty faint. I'm surprised I haven't found him yet in some of the databases I've been searching.
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donkirk
11/21/2009 4:40:35 PM | Misty, I'm sorry the thread seems to have drifted away from your original inquiry about the Martin crew. Is there anything we can help you with. IIRC you were hoping to get some additional information from your family; has that turned up any other new clues or new questions we might be able to work on?
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Nickel52
11/23/2009 11:44:15 AM | donkirk-My father said that McCord was indeed from a military background.I believe he said his father was a general(as in McCord Air Force base?),and that McCord jr. might have gotten in trouble with the old man (maybe by buzzing the airfield when his father was inspecting?) My memory may well be suffering from senioritis,but I know my dad said that the plane was made up of misfits,at least in terms of the officers;McCord, the rebel,the two Jewish officers and not least,my father,who had been a dancer before the war (he became an actor afterwards) as well as a card carrying CP member in the 30's.This played havoc with his officer's status; he was ranked as a warrant officer until after D-Day,at which time Bowman quickly promoted him to 1st. lieutenant,and was supposedly getting his captain's bars when Bowman was replaced after,according to my father,releasing his bomb load over France,then having to parachute into the area immediately.He then discovered he'd unloaded on a Scottish regiment which did not take kindly to the act.He was subsequently shipped home and replaced by Seawell (sp?) who told my father he'd never get his captain's bars.This is obviously all anecdotal;I'm curious if anyone can confirm or deny any or all of the above.
As to damage to the plane,I recall my dad saying they heard a tremendous explosion once near the plane,although the plane seemed unaffected.But when they landed they saw a huge hole in the fusilage.I don't recall where,perhaps the bomb bay doors.Does this help?
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donaldbyers
11/24/2009 12:26:16 PM | You don't get promoted to General if something like that happened!
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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donkirk
11/24/2009 4:17:19 PM | "Nickel52":
donkirk-My father said that McCord was indeed from a military background.I believe he said his father was a general(as in McCord Air Force base?),and that McCord jr. might have gotten in trouble with the old man (maybe by buzzing the airfield when his father was inspecting?)
Thanks for the post. To my surprise, I learned that the AFB is McChord, named for a much earlier Col. McChord. I know of an Army Col. McCord who was assigned to duty in England about the same time Ice Cold Katy was flying, but I don't know (yet) if he's the same family as pilot McCord. The one I'm aware of wouldn't likely have been doing inspections at an air base. I think I've seen messages about the plane taking heavy flak on some missions, but nothing specific. At any rate, it was still flying more than six months after our family members last flew it.
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donkirk
12/6/2009 1:31:20 AM | donkirk-My father said that McCord was indeed from a military background.I believe he said his father was a general(as in McCord Air Force base?),and that McCord jr. might have gotten in trouble with the old man (maybe by buzzing the airfield when his father was inspecting?) My memory may well be suffering from senioritis,but I know my dad said that the plane was made up of misfits,at least in terms of the officers;McCord, the rebel,the two Jewish officers and not least,my father,who had been a dancer before the war (he became an actor afterwards) as well as a card carrying CP member in the 30's.This played havoc with his officer's status; he was ranked as a warrant officer until after D-Day,at which time Bowman quickly promoted him to 1st. lieutenant,and was supposedly getting his captain's bars when Bowman was replaced after,according to my father,releasing his bomb load over France,then having to parachute into the area immediately.He then discovered he'd unloaded on a Scottish regiment which did not take kindly to the act.He was subsequently shipped home and replaced by Seawell (sp?) who told my father he'd never get his captain's bars.This is obviously all anecdotal;I'm curious if anyone can confirm or deny any or all of the above.
I can add a little bit. Capt. McCord's father was a Colonel in the Army Transportation Corps, stationed in England at the same time that Capt. McCord's crew was flying their missions. I understand the crew may have gone to meet the Colonel at his duty station at least once and that he visited Deenethorpe at least once. The crew's performance was apparently above average, with several critical mission assignments -- I think it's unlikely they were misfits in any normal sense of the word.
If I understand correctly your grandparents were clog dancers and instructors in the New York entertainment world (clog dancing was popular entertainment in the early 20th century), and your father apparently broadened out to other types of entertainment as well.
I'm trying to dig up additional information about the crew members, but I don't want to post anything I haven't verified to my own satisfaction. If and when I get relevant information I'll post it in the forum.
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Nickel52
12/6/2009 3:06:56 AM | Thanks for the information.Can you or anyone else corroborate the details of Bowman's being replaced? As I said,I'm repeating what my father told me,but I don't have any verification.
As to my father's background -my father,that is,NOT my grandfather (I'm fast approaching geezerhood myself),was in fact a ballroom dancer;first in Pennsylvania (he was born in 1916 and grew up in Lancaster) with, I kid you not, Fern Keough and his all-girl marimba band.He partnered Redge Keough,Fern's wife.After high school he moved to New York,where he studied modern,jazz,tap,and was married at the time to a well known dancer named Beatrice Seckler.He didn't work much,as he was 6'3" and about 140 lbs.,until after the war started.Then,while he was awaiting his OCS orders,he began to work at places like The Roxy with all the great dancers,such as the Condos and the Nicholas Brothers.After the war he became a successful actor.If you're interested,you can look him up at the Internet Movie Data Base (IMDB) under Richard McMurray.
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Nickel52
12/6/2009 3:10:32 AM | Lest I forget,yesterday I came across a letter my father had written to his mother just prior to returning to the states.It's dated October 1944.Does that tally with the dates of the rest of the crew's return?
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donkirk
12/8/2009 1:23:41 AM | As to my father's background -my father,that is,NOT my grandfather (I'm fast approaching geezerhood myself),was in fact a ballroom dancer;first in Pennsylvania (he was born in 1916 and grew up in Lancaster) with, I kid you not, Fern Keough and his all-girl marimba band.He partnered Redge Keough,Fern's wife.After high school he moved to New York,where he studied modern,jazz,tap,and was married at the time to a well known dancer named Beatrice Seckler.He didn't work much,as he was 6'3" and about 140 lbs.,until after the war started.Then,while he was awaiting his OCS orders,he began to work at places like The Roxy with all the great dancers,such as the Condos and the Nicholas Brothers.After the war he became a successful actor.If you're interested,you can look him up at the Internet Movie Data Base (IMDB) under Richard McMurray.
No, I meant your father's parents -- my brother believes they were also entertainers (in general his memory is pretty good, but it has been a long time), especially dancing and dance instruction. I don't know anything about Bowman except the name and his rank, but I'm sure some other forum members probably do know more.
Do you recall any information your father shared about the other crew members? My brother remembers a fair bit, but there must be a lot he never knew or has forgotten.
I don't know exactly when the crew came back, but I think they flew missions as late as September 28.
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Nickel52
12/11/2009 1:51:26 AM | Actually,my grandfather was a veteran of the Spanish-American War (!) He was a mustang,promoted from the ranks to lieutenant.He contracted TB and subsequently died of it when my dad was 5. Another aside,my father apparently was infected as a boy and was initially turned away when he attempted to enlist.His mother was a registered nurse.As to the other men,my dad said he had been touch for a while with McCord,but they lost contact.And he was friends with the other two officers who died.Beyond that nothing.Interestingly,he returned to the States and finished up his stint in Georgia as a flight instructor;two of the officers there,who were not really fliers,one a dentist and the other a dermatologist,got to fly with my dad so they could get paid.They both became family friends.
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donkirk
12/12/2009 12:09:27 AM | Apparently I misunderstood what my brother told me; I suppose he was talking about your parents, not your grandparents and also maybe he misremembered some details. He said McCord resigned from service in 1957, and later developed a debilitating disease. According to my brother when they talked on one occasion McCord didn't recognize him but on a different occasion he seemed very alert. He died in Florida in 1998.
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Nickel52
12/15/2009 1:02:25 PM | Thanks for that info;my dad seemed to have a somewhat complicated relationship with McCord (maybe that's standard between pilot and co-pilot).I do remember one time my father was grateful to him. When they flew the plane over to England there was a considerable amount of mountain flying necessary over Greenland,and my father's training had been in the South;McCord,however, had experience with flying over mountains and knew how to handle the plane (apparently depth perception can be dangerously distorted if you're unused to it).Add to that the fact that the Germans were bending the radar signal the planes were to follow.At one point my dad looked down as they flew over a mountain and said there were quite a number of downed planes! I'm curious as to how many other B-17s besides the one recently recovered are still lying there.
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