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rod
4/20/2010 8:44:32 AM | My Father Elmer B. Crossman was the bombardier on this crew . the 614 bomb squadron ... He is in the crew photo but is not listed here... can you please add him to the crew list. He was severely wounded on the 11 or t12 mission and was sent home. He was awarded the purple heart and silver star for gallantry in action. If there is anyone else that has info on this crew ,I'd love to share info with you. My dad passed away in 1964 from cancer when I was just 12 ... so I was never able to talk with him about his service... rod crossman
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MaryAlice
4/20/2010 10:00:11 AM | "rod":
My Father Elmer B. Crossman was the bombardier on this crew . the 614 bomb squadron ... He is in the crew photo but is not listed here... can you please add him to the crew list. He was severely wounded on the 11 or t12 mission and was sent home. He was awarded the purple heart and silver star for gallantry in action. If there is anyone else that has info on this crew ,I'd love to share info with you. My dad passed away in 1964 from cancer when I was just 12 ... so I was never able to talk with him about his service... rod crossman
I was able to find a Crossman that flew with the 614th...and you werent??
Excuse me, I found a R.M. Crossman..not a Elmer B.
Will keep looking, but don't worry, guys@ here know it all, and you got the right guys on the case...So, Paul, Don, EDana, WinWin...what say you?
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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MaryAlice
4/20/2010 10:12:05 AM | Well dang it, everytime I do search for St Aubyn, I find his crew, but when I click on his crew, my computer locks up????????
Did you try search button at top right corner of this screen?
If not, search for
St Aubyn (do NOT put a period after St) if you put the "period" after St, it will not find him. So:
Correct:
St Aubyn
Incorrect:
St. Aubyn
Once you search that, should pull up his crew. Click on that link, adn see what your computer does, as mine locks up for some reason...
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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Paul Bellamy
4/20/2010 11:17:45 AM | "rod":
My Father Elmer B. Crossman was the bombardier on this crew . the 614 bomb squadron ... He is in the crew photo but is not listed here... can you please add him to the crew list. He was severely wounded on the 11 or t12 mission and was sent home. He was awarded the purple heart and silver star for gallantry in action.
Hi Rod,
Checking the St Aubyn Crew mission rosters I'd say it was during their 11th mission that your Father was wounded:
Group Mission 171
Date: Tuesday, 21 November 1944
Target: Merseburg
Mission Summary: The Group provided the three squadrons making up the 94th Combat Wing "B" Group. At the IP a deck of clouds extending upward from 18,000 to 30,000 feet caused the formation to become somewhat scattered, and necessitated bombing by PFF. The High Squadron dropped on Eisenach, a target of opportunity. The Lead and Low Squadrons bombed Merseburg. The results of the bombing could not be observed.
Flak over the target was intense and accurate and resulted in the loss of the deputy lead aircraft, No. 42-97600, piloted by Captain Francis E. Rundell, Jr., which received a direct hit in the No. 2 engine, after which the wing broke off. All crew members were able to parachute safely to earth and became POW's. Another 401st aircraft, No. 44-6104 ("Homing Pigeon"), piloted by Lt. Robert J. Keck was crippled by flak and then attacked by a lone enemy Me-109, which in turn was shot down by 401st gunners. Of Lt. Keck's crew, the radio operator, S/Sgt. R. E. Engler and ball turret gunner, S/Sgt. E. W. Norr, were killed in action, while the other crew members survived and became POW's.
B-17 No. 42-107113, piloted by Lt. P. J. Sullivan, was forced to land in Belgium, but the crew returned safely to Deenthorpe. In addition to the downed aircraft, two 401st ships received major battle damage and 21 received minor flak damage. Four 401st crewmen were wounded, one seriously.
Your Father's Silver Star was issued under 8AF General Order #538 (1944), which will include the citation if you don't already have it.
A copy of this General Order, along with copies of service records, can be obtained free of charge by relatives from the National Personnel Records Center or NARA under the Freedom of Information regulations.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
4/20/2010 3:56:32 PM | Elmer B. Crossman according to 614th Loading List only flew 3 missions with this crew and then he disapears and not showing up with any other crews of the 614th BS. I will have to check the other squadrons to try and find out where he went.
Rod,
If you can Identify your father in the picture I can add his name to the photo. I have also added him to the Crew List.
Don
Group Historian
Update: I have checked the other Squadrons and have not found Elmer anywhere else. My assumption is something happened on the 28 Oct 1944
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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Paul Bellamy
4/20/2010 6:52:52 PM | There is this recorded for the 28th October mission:
Mission Summary:
The 401st provided the three 12 ship squadrons comprising the 94th Combat Wing "B" unit on this mission. Weather was a little better than in recent past missions, with 5/10 to 7/10 cloud cover, enabling the Group to make a visual attack aided by PFF. While results were somewhat uncertain, a few strikes from the Lead Squadron were seen well within the target area. Due to the overcast, strikes of the High and Low Squadrons could not be observed but were believed to be close to the MPI's.
While no enemy fighters were encountered, flak was heavy over the target. As a result, two Group aircraft received major battle damage and 21 reported minor damage. Three crew members were wounded, one seriously.
To add a further twist, I seem to recall the crew photo is dated early March 1945.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
4/20/2010 7:06:59 PM | Thanks for looking that up Paul and getting it on the Forum.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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MaryAlice
4/21/2010 7:09:24 AM | You guys are teh best!
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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rod
4/21/2010 7:25:25 AM | To All of you, thanks for the information and your help ... you are all wonderful ....my dad Captain Elmer B. Crossman is the second person seated on the left as you are looking at the photo ... ...I also think my sister has a copy of this photo..... but we didn't have the names of the other crew.... I have a news paper article that appeared in a Nebraska newspaper after he got home.. that tells the story of how in spite of being seriously wounded he stayed at his post until over the target and the bombs were delivered... according to my mom who is no longer living... the pilot or co pilot helped save his life by stopping the bleeding. a piece of flak entered his leg and lodged in his abdomen thanks rod
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rod
4/21/2010 7:33:57 AM | Don
thanks again... is it possible that he was seriously wounded on the third mission? I thought I remember my mom saying he flew on eleven missions though? rod
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MaryAlice
4/21/2010 12:33:44 PM | If you go by the "notes" under Aubyn's crew, it states that Crossman was seriously wounded after 3 missions, and was sent home. Is kind of interesting that one area says 11 missions, the other 3??
This was under Aubyn's page:
"Crew Notes
Elmer B. Crossman only flew the first three missions with this crew. He was seriously wounded on the 28 Oct 1944 mission. He was awarded the Purple Heart and Silver Star and was later sent home."
Paul/Don, any insight on that?
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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rod
4/21/2010 2:06:19 PM | MaryAlice?
thanks for the additional info... I am obviously wrong about the eleven missions it must have been three missions ... it is good to get it cleared up... I remember my mom saying that that stayed in touch with other crew members for years after the war and even got together a couple of times.. I wish I could sit down with them all now and listen to their stories. This website is probably the nearest thing to that, I want to thank all those in charge of this website and forum... it is so wonderful. ... where did you find the pilots notes? is that on this website somewhere? what a wonderful resource you have all been , and so kind to help me through this research.... I am in awe of all our WWII men and women who blessed us all with their selfless sacrifice and service. calm days rod
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Paul Bellamy
4/21/2010 2:14:26 PM | Here you are Rod,
St Aubyn Crew Page: http://www.401bg.org/History/crew.asp?cid=11911
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
4/21/2010 3:00:53 PM | Rod,
Ok, first I have made the caption on the crew photo to indicated your father. Now second all the words you read were my words after putting them in yesterday evening about the 3 missions. I have checked our loading lists and he doesn't appear in any squadron after the 28 Oct 1944. We also always have to thing that many years has passed and memories are not the same after 65 years unless they were put paper at the end of the war. We then have to go with what the army airforce put on paper. Can you tell me for certain there were 11 or 12 missions? I would be more than willing to research farther. We don't really have information as to what happened to wounded airman after they recovered. So until we do we have to go with the other records.
Don
Willing to assist more.
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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rod
4/21/2010 3:14:32 PM | Paul and Don
wow!! wow! It is so moving to see my dad included along side his crew... I know this would mean so much to him.. thanks for honoring his service and memory calm days and big blessings rod ...
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donaldbyers
4/21/2010 4:31:04 PM | For quite awhile the database of the 401st Bomb Group would not be changed for just about any reason including just a spelling correction. With the newer people now working in this area guided by our peers we have changed that method. We are looking for more information and confirming the new facts and then we will make a correction to the database. And we take your dad as an example, he was not in the database as are a lot of crew people. And that is because of the nature of the database which is static. It is not interactive at all. If the database was at the time listed maybe by date then who ever flew on that date would appear under the pilot. I am not a database expert but it is limited and we have a lot of people not listed. Maybe there is a way out of that. I added your dad because he was part of the orginal crew and did fly with Aubyn.
Thanks Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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donaldbyers
4/21/2010 7:51:35 PM | Since we are asking more questions on this crew and an additional question on the on aircraft they flew a lot of their missions in I looked in the 2005 401st BG Directory. There were two members shown in it. H.R. Dearborn was one which had an email address and the other was C. Kahn who didn't have one. I have sent an email to him to see if I can get an answer for us. I also asked about the aircraft they flew many time and see if we could come up with a nickname for that B-17. If I don't get a full answer from hime I will write a letter to Mr. Kahn.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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MaryAlice
4/22/2010 10:15:22 AM | "rod":
MaryAlice?
thanks for the additional info... I am obviously wrong about the eleven missions it must have been three missions ... it is good to get it cleared up... I remember my mom saying that that stayed in touch with other crew members for years after the war and even got together a couple of times.. I wish I could sit down with them all now and listen to their stories. This website is probably the nearest thing to that, I want to thank all those in charge of this website and forum... it is so wonderful. ... where did you find the pilots notes? is that on this website somewhere? what a wonderful resource you have all been , and so kind to help me through this research.... I am in awe of all our WWII men and women who blessed us all with their selfless sacrifice and service. calm days rod
Haha..Mary Alice is the name of my Grandpa's B-17G he flew on. My name is Derrick, grandson of William Dale Sartor, Top Turret gunner on B-17G-35-BO 42-31983, "Mary Alice". Was nicknamed after the pilot, Mr. Dan Knight, his mom. When I joiend this forum, I had not the first clue about what I now know. You hang @ here for any length of time (oh, I have been @ here since @ Jan '10) and the info you will pick up/learn, is truly amazing.
This forum has given me teh motivation to build a replica/model of "Mary Alice", read 1 book, Masters of the Air, start another one, Mission 376, Battle over the Reich 28 May 1944, become a "member" of the 401st by making a donation, and now I get teh newsletter that is sent out, and I am all set to attend the annual reunion they hold in Savanah Georgia.
Now, that is not including ALL of the info I ahve learned and pics I have been shown..whether it be the "MAry Alice" in action, crew photo's, what mission my Grandpa flew on with what crew, etc..just a REALLY amazing forum.
It has helped that my Grandpa was a very detailed man, and kept his flight book over the years, and able to verify certain tidbits, put 2 and 2 together, things like that.
If it pertains to the Eighth Air Force, in particular the 401st BG, THIS is the place to be.....glad to have you @
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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rod
4/23/2010 7:55:04 PM | Derrick
thanks for the great post ... your grandfather would be thrilled with your interest in his life.... I think I'm going to join as well.. what a great group of people serving the family and memory of so many ... calm days rod
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rod
4/23/2010 7:57:32 PM | Hi Don
thank for the additional research you are doing on G.H Aubyn's crew... I'd love to be able to talk with either of the crew members you have been in touch with.... do you think they might go to the reunion? calm days rod
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donaldbyers
4/23/2010 10:05:33 PM | Can't say if they would come to the reunion or not. I will send a personal message to you with the phone numbers. You will see it as a new message in the forum Top Left.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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MaryAlice
4/24/2010 8:51:53 AM | "rod":
Derrick
thanks for the great post ... your grandfather would be thrilled with your interest in his life.... I think I'm going to join as well.. what a great group of people serving the family and memory of so many ... calm days rod
You bet, anytime...Because of this forum, I have now been in contact with a POSSIBLE maintenance crew member, that POSSIBLY worked on the Mary Alice. I will know more in teh next few days or so, as I sent him a letter, asking him questions in regards to the above.
I have also found out that the pilot, Mr. Dan Knight, of teh Mary Alice is still alive. Was able to find that out by a member who actually met Mr. Dan Knight here recently. Now, I have been trying to get a message to him (Mr. Dan Knight), with not much luck. I was hoping that someone would come forward that had his address/phone #/email address, but nothing yet. But, knowing that he is still alive gives me hope tath one day soon, I will get to talk to him, about himself, and my Grandpa and thier time together on the Mary Alice. Without this website, would probaly have zero chance of doing that...but with it, I have a slight chance..... 🙂
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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carololsen
8/11/2011 8:20:44 PM | "rod":
My Father Elmer B. Crossman was the bombardier on this crew . the 614 bomb squadron ... He is in the crew photo but is not listed here... can you please add him to the crew list. He was severely wounded on the 11 or t12 mission and was sent home. He was awarded the purple heart and silver star for gallantry in action. If there is anyone else that has info on this crew ,I'd love to share info with you. My dad passed away in 1964 from cancer when I was just 12 ... so I was never able to talk with him about his service... rod crossman
Rod...my father, John F Buckley, flew with your father. Were you able to find any of the others? My email is colsen at Stanford dot edu if you care to communicate. Carol
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donaldbyers
8/12/2011 3:16:03 AM | Rod...my father, John F Buckley, flew with your father. Were you able to find any of the others? My email is colsen at Stanford dot edu if you care to communicate.
Can you identify your father in the photo at this address http://www.401bg.org/photo_archive/photo.asp?pid=10346
Thanks Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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