General Posts #236

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| '''Moriarty''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/15/2010 5:21:11 PM 
| Greetings All<br/> <br/> I've had a Monogram 1/48 B-17G model sat in a box of unbuilt/unfinished models for well over 20 years now. I bought it to build as 42-31037 'Pistol Packin Mama' of the 613rd BS 401st BG after seeing a picture of the nose art in the excellent 'Fortresses of the Big Triangle First' by Cliff Bishop, way back in the mid Eighties. However, as with all my modelling projects, the research into the subject became the more rewarding part of the project as my modelling skills could never do justice to the real thing.<br/> <br/> During a recent sort I rediscovered the model and the information I had gathered, including a hand-written potted history of 42-31037 from Roger A Freeman. My interest rekindled, I find this website and perhaps now can finish what I started all that time ago. <br/> <br/> But I need help.<br/> <br/> Firstly, are there any other known photographs of 'Pistol Packin Mama'? (I found a second photo of her tail on the 'Did B-17s only have.....' thread)<br/> <br/> I know that B-17G-1-BO were built with three small gun-less cheek windows each side in the nose, had the B-17F style slide open windows in the waist gunner positions and above the radio compartment, but (I think) had the improved glazing on the top turret. What I can't find out is what field modifications were carried out before the aircraft arrived at Deenethorpe and if any were done sebsequently. From the nose art photo I can see 'Pistol Packin Mama' had a modified starboard cheek window, but from other photographs I've noticed that some 401st BG B-17G-1-BO's kept the factory layout port cheek windows with no .50 cal.<br/> <br/> If anyone has any information specifically about this aircraft or about modifications made to the original 401st BG aircraft I would be very grateful if you would pass it on to me.<br/> <br/> Many thanks,<br/> <br/> Philip <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/15/2010 7:20:14 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Moriarty":</span><br/>Greetings All<br/> <br/> I've had a Monogram 1/48 B-17G model sat in a box of unbuilt/unfinished models for well over 20 years now. I bought it to build as 42-31037 'Pistol Packin Mama' of the 613rd BS 401st BG after seeing a picture of the nose art in the excellent 'Fortresses of the Big Triangle First' by Cliff Bishop, way back in the mid Eighties. However, as with all my modelling projects, the research into the subject became the more rewarding part of the project as my modelling skills could never do justice to the real thing.<br/> <br/> During a recent sort I rediscovered the model and the information I had gathered, including a hand-written potted history of 42-31037 from Roger A Freeman. My interest rekindled, I find this website and perhaps now can finish what I started all that time ago. <br/> <br/> But I need help.<br/> <br/> Firstly, are there any other known photographs of 'Pistol Packin Mama'? (I found a second photo of her tail on the 'Did B-17s only have.....' thread)<br/> <br/> I know that B-17G-1-BO were built with three small gun-less cheek windows each side in the nose, had the B-17F style slide open windows in the waist gunner positions and above the radio compartment, but (I think) had the improved glazing on the top turret. What I can't find out is what field modifications were carried out before the aircraft arrived at Deenethorpe and if any were done sebsequently. From the nose art photo I can see 'Pistol Packin Mama' had a modified starboard cheek window, but from other photographs I've noticed that some 401st BG B-17G-1-BO's kept the factory layout port cheek windows with no .50 cal.<br/> <br/> If anyone has any information specifically about this aircraft or about modifications made to the original 401st BG aircraft I would be very grateful if you would pass it on to me.<br/> <br/> Many thanks,<br/> <br/> Philip</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Well Phillip, I am not the one to answer your question, but what I CAN tell you is that this IS the place to be to find info on the 401ST! you will find quickly that Paul, Don and Ed are a wealth of info, and of course jsut about everyone else will be able to chip in as well. Glad you are here, and I am building a model as well (Mary Alice) Once started make sure you get some pics going!!!!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>3/15/2010 7:35:41 PM 
| Looking closely at the AFHRA photo of P.P.M. there doesn't appear to be a port-side cheek gun mount fitted, which was not uncommon on modified early Gs in the 8AF.<br/> The forward "small" port-side window certainly hasn't been replaced, and there doesn't appear to be the amount of light visible inside that would be expected if a cheek mount had been fitted directly opposite the starboard one.<br/> <br/> I'm led to believe that the majority of early B-17Gs were modified with enclosed waist windows in the USA or on arrival in the ETO, prior to delivery to combat units.<br/> The radio-room hatch with the gun port seems to have been a slightly later modification, in light of the difficulty replacing the hatch in flight.<br/> <br/> P.P.M. still retained the original "long" pattern nose glazing, the "blunt" version supplied with the Monogram kit coming along later in production.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>3/15/2010 8:25:13 PM 
| I've pulled the PPM photos I have on file, these should help:<br/> <br/> On dispersal, late January 1944.<br/> Dorsal whip antenna on nose, ferrying serials painted out, B-17F pattern nosecone:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/PPM4.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Pre-mission prang, 6th July 1944:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/PPM1.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Detail showing the barred-pattern enclosed waist windows, chaff chute in radio operator's side window, an unusual radio room hatch (central canvas-covered gun port?), armoured cockpit side windows fitted since January, fin de-icing boot removed:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/PPM3.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Detail of the port side of the nose, confirming only the starboard side had a cheek gun mount fitted. Ferrying serials painted out as before:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/PPM2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/16/2010 7:54:40 AM 
| Moriarity...what did I tell ya? Paul to the rescue... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Moriarty''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/16/2010 11:18:16 AM 
| Er....Wow!<br/> <br/> Thanks for the quick replies.<br/> <br/> Paul, those photographs are fantastic. The two images I'd already seen were cropped versions of the first two you have posted above, but the full frame photographs alone answer most of my questions.<br/> <br/> Is there anywhere I can download high resolution, or purchase hard copies of these photographs?<br/> <br/> The plan is to represent the aircraft around the time of the Normandy invasion. Now, all I need to do is find out how many missions she had flown by then for the nose markings - oh! and build the model!!<br/> <br/> Again, many thanks<br/> <br/> Philip <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/16/2010 2:07:36 PM 
| And the best part about it is, I am sure Paul is not even really tried yet to find info for you...the above was probaly something that he could go straight to and pulled out for you. This guy has an unbelievable amount of info to share...I came on here to this site HOPING to find info on Mary Alice, only to be blown away with what has been provided for me. Never in a million years would I have thought I would have received as much info as I have.<br/> <br/> Good luck with your project..and like I said, once you get ehr going, post up some pics!! I have my build thread going on as well (and there are a few other members that posted up thier model abuilds as well) and got some pics in there for you.. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Moriarty''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/17/2010 5:55:16 AM 
| Just noticed that the nose art photo in 'Fortresses of the Big Triangle First', is at a slightly different angle. Taken at the same time, no doubt, as mission tally is the same - just a bit closer in.<br/> <br/> Another question. It doesn't affect my project, as the prang photographs post-date my build, but did the 401st retro-paint the yellow tail stripe on olive drab aircraft? If so from approximately when? <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>3/17/2010 7:07:08 AM 
| The yellow stripe was introduced on all 401st B-17s during August 1944.<br/> <br/> For downloadable hi-res versions of all the NARA photos, albeit slightly cropped as they are the reference index copies, go to [http://www.footnote.com|www.footnote.com] and enter the photo number in the search box, i.e. 12345AC, A12345AC, etc.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/17/2010 1:15:56 PM 
| Hey Paul,<br/> <br/> Judging by that first dispersal photo I reckon with a bit of work we could be in line for another spot numbering  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> Dale <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''Moriarty''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/17/2010 3:51:49 PM 
| Thanks again, Paul.<br/> <br/> I found the two 'prang' photographs (it helps having the reference number on the photo).<br/> <br/> Does the 'Nose Art' photo come from the footnote site? If so, do you know the NARA photo number for this photograph'?<br/> <br/> Cheers<br/> <br/> Philip <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>3/17/2010 5:43:49 PM 
| If you go up to the top of this page you'll see a dropdown tab for the website's Gallery.<br/> From there it's NARA&gt;Nose Art&gt; which are in numerical order.<br/> In this instance the photo you're after is A65640AC.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>3/17/2010 5:50:11 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>Hey Paul,<br/> <br/> Judging by that first dispersal photo I reckon with a bit of work we could be in line for another spot numbering  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> Dispersal No.40.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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