General Posts #264

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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/29/2010 5:19:32 PM 
| the name of the plane on the left side? Or both?  Basically, I am a rookie at this, and in honor of my Grandpa who just recently passed away, I am doing ALOT of research and here is what I am doing, and why I need this info:<br/> <br/> #1)I just recently bought a model plane (followed a link to a model, from this website), and when I get the plane, i want to paint it to represent my Grandpa's plane, the Mary Alice.  Now, all pics I have seen,appears the name only is on teh left handside...is that the case?<br/> <br/> #2)Are their any tips I should consider, when I paint my plane? Anything that is crucial to being exact? Reason i ask this is twofold...one being the model, and 2 being I am getting the plane tattoo'd on me, and want it to be EXACT.<br/> <br/> Thanks guys!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>1/29/2010 6:57:51 PM 
| From all available evidence, the nose art on <i>Mary Alice</i> was only on the port/left side of the nose.<br/> It would also appear that the IWM Duxford's rendering is not 100% accurate, although what images they used for their paintwork references isn't entirely clear at present.<br/> <br/> There was a decal sheet available in 1/48 scale for <i>Mary Alice</i>, in the correct WW2 colours, but the company that made them was liquidated in 2008.<br/> They do turn up on eBay from time to time, the item is Meteor Productions' "<b>Cutting Edge Decals sheet CED48279</b>"<br/> Pictures of this sheet can be seen [http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev2/1001-1100/Rev1025_CED48279/rev1025.htm|<u>HERE</u>] and [http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/ced48279decalreviewfw_1.htm|<u>HERE</u>].<br/> The paint scheme is the standard Olive Drab upper and Grey undersides, the line between the two varied according to manufacturer. Note that <i>Mary Alice</i> came out of the Boeing factory in bare metal, and was presumably camouflage painted at an Air Depot in England prior to her arrival at Deenethorpe so there may be a further variation.<br/> <br/> Hope that gives you a start, there are a number of black and white period detail photo's of parts of <i>Mary Alice</i> in The Blue Book which I can scan for you if required.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 9:38:32 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Paul Bellamy":</span><br/>From all available evidence, the nose art on <i>Mary Alice</i> was only on the port/left side of the nose.<br/> It would also appear that the IWM Duxford's rendering is not 100% accurate, although what images they used for their paintwork references isn't entirely clear at present.<br/> <br/> There was a decal sheet available in 1/48 scale for <i>Mary Alice</i>, in the correct WW2 colours, but the company that made them was liquidated in 2008.<br/> They do turn up on eBay from time to time, the item is Meteor Productions' "<b>Cutting Edge Decals sheet CED48279</b>"<br/> Pictures of this sheet can be seen [http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev2/1001-1100/Rev1025_CED48279/rev1025.htm|<u>HERE</u>] and [http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/ced48279decalreviewfw_1.htm|<u>HERE</u>].<br/> The paint scheme is the standard Olive Drab upper and Grey undersides, the line between the two varied according to manufacturer. Note that <i>Mary Alice</i> came out of the Boeing factory in bare metal, and was presumably camouflage painted at an Air Depot in England prior to her arrival at Deenethorpe so there may be a further variation.<br/> <br/> Hope that gives you a start, there are a number of black and white period detail photo's of parts of <i>Mary Alice</i> in The Blue Book which I can scan for you if required.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Again, Paul, thanks for coming through for me! My model plane (will be my first, as I am a Hot Rod/Car guy by nature) should be at my house by time I get home (on vacation right now).<br/> While I have put together my share of car models over the years, have never attempted any plane. Add in teh fact that all the cars I have done, were soley my "imagination" and never did a car to represent or look like anything else, all adds to what I believe, the difficulty of trying to duplicate the Mary Alice.<br/> I will keep my eye's peeled for those graphics you provided link for.<br/> Ebay best plce to find them huh? The correct colors for paint, I SHOULD be able to find at local hobby store, correct? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 10:21:44 AM 
| The colours should be easy to find at any hobby store.<br/> <br/> Upper surfaces: ANA 613 Olive Drab. Current FS 34084<br/> Underside: AF 41 Neutral Grey. Current FS 36173<br/> <br/> The interior colours are also available, but what bits of the inside of which B-17 was what colour on what date is a subject that researchers have been arguing about for decades. &#x1f609;<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 3:19:17 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Paul Bellamy":</span><br/>The colours should be easy to find at any hobby store.<br/> <br/> Upper surfaces: ANA 613 Olive Drab. Current FS 34084<br/> Underside: AF 41 Neutral Grey. Current FS 36173<br/> <br/> The interior colours are also available, but what bits of the inside of which B-17 was what colour on what date is a subject that researchers have been arguing about for decades. &#x1f609;<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Again, MANY thanks Paul. Quick question bout your post BEFORE this one...you said there were some pics of the May Alice in "The Blue Book" thatyou could scan for me. Now, before I ask you to do that..are they photo's that are posted in my other thread? Or other? Because the pics in that other thread, are the only one's I have of the Mary Alice, which is not many obviously.<br/> Also, when I find an issue of "The Blue Book" (or am i going to be able to???) is it "cost effective"? Or is it a rather expensive book. If it has pics of teh Mary Alice in it, i would like to have a copy for myself. best place (again, if i am able to) to try and locate this book would be???<br/> <br/> OK, now,about what i quoted you on...well teh interior, while a very integral part of the plane, no doubt, at this point, the exterior is what I am more concerned with..to get as acurate as possible. Not that I am saying I am not concerned with the interior, as I am...I am just saying that I will be happy taking this one part at a time, and figure I will have much better luck at getting the exterior taken care of first. <br/> And, once I gather my info on exterior, i am sure by then, i will have come across some details on the interior.<br/> <br/> Either way, I am real excited about this "project" I am undertaking...and hoping my plane is at my doorstep when I get there! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 8:35:04 PM 
| As an item of interest, Nose Art can be found on bothsides of a B-17 but that was all up to the crew.  Some B-17's have two names because another crew who have taken over the aircraft put their own stamp/nose art on it.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/31/2010 9:10:18 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>As an item of interest, Nose Art can be found on bothsides of a B-17 but that was all up to the crew.  Some B-17's have two names because another crew who have taken over the aircraft put their own stamp/nose art on it.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Ahh, ok, interesting note there, did not know that.  I am finding all this info very interesting, and really for alot of different reasons. Obviously #1, is because of my Grandpa. But, I am also finding this very gratifying because of our military, and i am becoming more educated on them. Even though I never served in our military, I was never opposed to it either, and in fact, this happened to me:<br/> <br/> Was working pipeline construction, and had no career in sight. Had just gotten laid off, yet again, and was like, ya know....I am gonna join our military. I looked at all of them, and to be quie honest, not sure WHY, but I chose teh National Guard. Recruiter came out, talked with me, and had me talked into it.  As I mentioned before, I am BIG into cars/building/fixing stuff, so was gonna be a helicopter mechanic. Anyways, went to downtown Houston with my recruiter, filled out the forms, and took teh physical, and everything was all a go, and all i had to do was sign on teh dotted line.<br/> I told my recruiter I wanted to go home, and REALLY think tomake sure that is what I wanted to do. When  got home, there was a message on my answering machine, and was my Boss (actually a welder, and I was a welder helper) and he had another job for us. I took that as a sign that I was to keep working pipeline.<br/> Called my recruiter and told him, and that ended up being my military history. I worked pipeline for a couple more years, pretty steady, then went to work as a technician at Toyota, then another company, and then in 2001 started my own business building Hot Rods, and is where I am today. I still think, and sometimes wish, that I HAD joined the military.<br/> Well, my grandpa (obviously), and both of his sons (my Uncles) were in the military, and Uncles served in Vietnam.<br/> I try and keep up with any war that we maybe part of, and I make sure I tell the guys when I see them thanks for doing what you are doing...keeping our country, and my family safe, and it is teh also the small things, like pulling for  "Team Army" and Tony Schumacher (he races Top Fuel Dragster, and i pull for his team simply because he is sponsored by the Army)...so, while it is a small part, I DO try and give respect to all of our armed forces when I can.<br/> So, by me taking on this project, i feel not only is it in honor of my Grandpa, it is to recognize ALL our military.<br/> <br/> In fact, I have now decided that I am going to paint my race car, the same pattern as the Mary Alice as well. <br/> We walked along teh riverwalk (San Antonio) last night, and I brought my list of books that were recommended to me, but did not see a book store last night. Whe I get back to town, going to hit up the local Barnes and Noble, and see if I can't find a good book or two.<br/> <br/> Yes, like to talk. &#x1f642; <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 10:58:03 AM 
| Well, my model plane did not make it to my doorstep. I checked on it this morning, and it got shipped out on saturday, so should be here by @ Tues or Wed of this week. So, will take pics when I get it..... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 2:08:30 PM 
| My B-17 which is 1/72 scale has been in the works for two years and should be closing in on it's compleation in a couple of months.  I need to find 401st BG markings for it.  I need to contact the person that is doing it for me and let him know that I will be going back into the hospital the end of this month and won't be able to drive and pick it up.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 4:51:34 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>My B-17 which is 1/72 scale has been in the works for two years and should be closing in on it's compleation in a couple of months.  I need to find 401st BG markings for it.  I need to contact the person that is doing it for me and let him know that I will be going back into the hospital the end of this month and won't be able to drive and pick it up.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Well good luck with your model, and I am sure you will be able to find the correct markings for it. Got any progress pictures of it for us (or should I say, ME, hahaha)?<br/> <br/> @hospital...I hope everything turns out well for you. My thoughts and prayers are sent your way Don. All the best.<br/> Sincerely,<br/> Derrick <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 6:18:07 PM 
| Hey guys, I found this picture, and wanted to show it to you. Is the "look" I am going for? Does it appear that the lettering and placement is correct? Anything out of place?<br/> <br/> Again, I know you guys are the professionals, so wanted to ask you.<br/> <br/> Thanks!!<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/GrandpaMaryAlice5.jpg' /> <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 5:00:40 AM 
| Mary Alice,<br/> <br/> Just to let you know that for no other reason than the replica is just down the road at Duxford the 'Mary Alice' is my adopted ship within the 401st, so to have someone on board who is related to a crew member is good news. I have made a model of the 'Mary Alice' in 1/72 a Hasegawa kit the markings came together from variuos decal sheets and the nose art I did free hand  &#x1f644; . I would like to let you see my efforts but as I don't have the computer wit to get pictures onto the forum can you give me an e mail address so I can send them that way or Paul, Ed, Don etc can explain step by step how I should get pictures onto the forum  :shock:  phew. Just one last thing as along with Paul I am all over Deenethorpe on a regular basis I am still waiting for his genius to locate the dispersal spot of 'Mary Alice' so I can go mooch around and breath in the history  &#x1f602;  over to you professor Paul  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> All the best<br/> <br/> Dale <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 7:02:14 AM 
| All right I know I don't do computers, did I tell you how much I hate computers? oh no that was Ed,  &#x1f602; anyway I can't get the size right  &#x1F926;  but here is a taster  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/MaryAlice.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/MaryAlice4.jpg' /> <br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/MaryAlice2-1.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/MaryAlice1.jpg' /><br/> <br/> All the best<br/> <br/> Dale (PC dimwit) <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 9:04:47 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>Mary Alice,<br/> <br/> Just to let you know that for no other reason than the replica is just down the road at Duxford the 'Mary Alice' is my adopted ship within the 401st, so to have someone on board who is related to a crew member is good news. I have made a model of the 'Mary Alice' in 1/72 a Hasegawa kit the markings came together from variuos decal sheets and the nose art I did free hand  &#x1f644; . I would like to let you see my efforts but as I don't have the computer wit to get pictures onto the forum can you give me an e mail address so I can send them that way or Paul, Ed, Don etc can explain step by step how I should get pictures onto the forum  :shock:  phew. Just one last thing as along with Paul I am all over Deenethorpe on a regular basis I am still waiting for his genius to locate the dispersal spot of 'Mary Alice' so I can go mooch around and breath in the history  &#x1f602;  over to you professor Paul  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> All the best<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> AWESOME!!!! First I can actually tell you how to put up photo's on the forum, and since I am a complete moron when it comes to computers, you should be able to if I can do it.<br/> <br/> This is how I do it:<br/> <br/> I joined "Photobucket". it is a free photo album page. basically, you go to teh site, join up for free, then you can start downloading pictures to your photo album. Then, once you have a picture that you want to post to a website (like your model plane, all you do is go to photobucket, find teh picture that you want to post. Below that picture, there wil be a "img" link next to it. Highlight that "img", then "copy" it, by hitting on your keyboard, teh buttons "control" and "C" at same time. Then, come over to your thread that you want to post that pic to, then right click your mouse, then hit "Control" and "V" and then a bunch of words will show up, but once you hit submit, it will turn into a picture.<br/> <br/> Sounds complicated, but VERY easy. Again, if I can do it, I know you can.<br/> <br/> 2nd....it IS good to have a Mary Alice afficiando here on board.  If you want, you can locate some of my thread, as i have found some good info on the Mary Alice (of which you may already have, but you never know).<br/> <br/> I found a hobby store in my area last night that was closing down, and had anywhere from 25-50% off EVERYTHING...and they had everything BUT B-17 bombers!! Panther, B24, submarine, battle ship, aircraft carriers...not sure what scale, but they were BIG. Anyways, I did not have my paint code on me, but their paint is on clearnace as well. Plan on going back today to pick up teh Olive Drab and neutral grey listed above. Hopefully they still have some. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 1:09:14 PM 
| Thanks for all that chap, however I've got a handle on that bit I just don't seem to be able to make my images larger for whatever reason  &#x1f622;  Anyway that can be dealt with another time.<br/>  I wish you luck with your model there is not that much on the market as far as B-17G's go. I decided to go with Hasegawa as they are about the best, I would'nt touch Airfix and Acedemy are good but pricey  &#x1f622; . If you want to go big in 1/48 then there is the Revell/Monogram version which I dismissed as it is very large and I don't have the room and to make a good fist of it you would have to spend a fortune on upgrades, guns, engine nacelles, undercarriage etc but as Professor Paul pointed out there is a decal sheet for that size if you can find one (e bay etc I would guess).<br/> I have been putting together a bit of a history for 'Mary Alice' missions, crews all that kind of stuff I have a fair bit of info to research and people like Paul and Don have other additional information so it is slowly coming together. However and I think this is crucial, we collectively, need to get to the bottom of dispersal locations for individual aircraft. The late George Menzel managed to find the dispersal pan for 'Maiden USA' so the information is out there somewhere. I reckon Professor Paul and Don have a better handle on finding that information than the likes of myself so I'm leaning heavily on them and as rumours persist of housing going on the airfield site then information on aircraft dispersal spots are, in my opinion, becoming vital.<br/> Did you know there is a painting of the 'Mary Alice' by I think it's by Ron Hill I've put the image here for you to see, small size of course  &#x1F926;<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/Mary_Alice2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Tally Ho<br/> <br/> Dale <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''win-win''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 1:17:31 PM 
| Hi:<br/> <br/> A little detail to remember about B-17s and models:<br/> - - Early B-17s had their waist-gunner windows/positions 'opposite' each other on the left and right side of the fuselage (so the two waist gunners inside were back to back and probably bumped into each other when the action was hot; but<br/> - -  Late B-17s had the waist gunner windows/positions 'staggered' on the left and right side of the aircraft - one forward of the other - so gunners had more room to work.<br/> <br/> Without opening the box of a modelB-17, I haven't a clue how to check which waist-gun port configuration the model has, or whether it's even worth worrying about.  Looking at Phoenix's left-side 'Mary Alice' view, it looks like if you bought a model with a 'later'  configuration (with staggered waist-gun ports) and you're modeling an early B-17, I assume the only 'difference' would be a 'swap' in position of the U.S. Star and the waist-gun port on one side and that the Squadron Code would remain positioned as it appears (outboard of the U.S. Star and waist-gunb port).<br/> <br/> Since I don't have a model, (with good reason - my glue-work looks more like 'a blob attack') maybe someone who's actually done models could post their additions, corrections and how-tos. <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 2:08:08 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>Thanks for all that chap, however I've got a handle on that bit I just don't seem to be able to make my images larger for whatever reason  &#x1f622;  Anyway that can be dealt with another time.<br/>  I wish you luck with your model there is not that much on the market as far as B-17G's go. I decided to go with Hasegawa as they are about the best, I would'nt touch Airfix and Acedemy are good but pricey  &#x1f622; . If you want to go big in 1/48 then there is the Revell/Monogram version which I dismissed as it is very large and I don't have the room and to make a good fist of it you would have to spend a fortune on upgrades, guns, engine nacelles, undercarriage etc but as Professor Paul pointed out there is a decal sheet for that size if you can find one (e bay etc I would guess).<br/> I have been putting together a bit of a history for 'Mary Alice' missions, crews all that kind of stuff I have a fair bit of info to research and people like Paul and Don have other additional information so it is slowly coming together. However and I think this is crucial, we collectively, need to get to the bottom of dispersal locations for individual aircraft. The late George Menzel managed to find the dispersal pan for 'Maiden USA' so the information is out there somewhere. I reckon Professor Paul and Don have a better handle on finding that information than the likes of myself so I'm leaning heavily on them and as rumours persist of housing going on the airfield site then information on aircraft dispersal spots are, in my opinion, becoming vital.<br/> Did you know there is a painting of the 'Mary Alice' by I think it's by Ron Hill I've put the image here for you to see, small size of course  &#x1F926;<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/Mary_Alice2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Tally Ho<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> DALE, WILL YOU PLEASE SEND ME THAT PICTURE OF MARY ALICE FLYING????  Email is [mailto:logava@yahoo.com|logava@yahoo.com]<br/> <br/> And NO, did not know that was out there...i am basically a rookie at this, and just started gathering SERIOUS info in teh last 2-3 weeks is all. I had talked with my Grandpa many times before about the war, and sometime in December that i was gonna get real serious about it. And @ 2 weeks after Christmas, my Grandpa passed on. So, now I am full steam into it.<br/> <br/> To be honest, I do not know what size model I bought...probaly a small one..I just followed a link from here on the site to a model, asked my wife, and I bought it.  So, I don't know what brand, size, etc...However, it won't be my last. I planned on making this one, seeing how it turned out, and if it came out good...was gonna give it to my Grandma as a surprise..then tackle another one for myself.<br/> <br/> If you can send that pic to me, that would be GREAT!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 2:12:14 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"win-win":</span><br/>Hi:<br/> <br/> A little detail to remember about B-17s and models:<br/> - - Early B-17s had their waist-gunner windows/positions 'opposite' each other on the left and right side of the fuselage (so the two waist gunners inside were back to back and probably bumped into each other when the action was hot; but<br/> - -  Late B-17s had the waist gunner windows/positions 'staggered' on the left and right side of the aircraft - one forward of the other - so gunners had more room to work.<br/> <br/> Without opening the box of a modelB-17, I haven't a clue how to check which waist-gun port configuration the model has, or whether it's even worth worrying about.  Looking at Phoenix's left-side 'Mary Alice' view, it looks like if you bought a model with a 'later'  configuration (with staggered waist-gun ports) and you're modeling an early B-17, I assume the only 'difference' would be a 'swap' in position of the U.S. Star and the waist-gun port on one side and that the Squadron Code would remain positioned as it appears (outboard of the U.S. Star and waist-gunb port).<br/> <br/> Since I don't have a model, (with good reason - my glue-work looks more like 'a blob attack') maybe someone who's actually done models could post their additions, corrections and how-tos.</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> WEll, i don't have my model yet either...SHOULD be here today, hopefully. I feel like a kid at a candy store waiting on it. However, i want to say THANK YOU for the info you just shared, and as usual, did not know that fact. One of the facts I DID pick up on, was that early versions of B17 did not have the chin turret, and when they introduced the chin turret later on, it was refered to as the B-17G...which I know ALL of you guys know, I am just saying, that was something I learned not to long ago. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 2:15:13 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/><br/> I have been putting together a bit of a history for 'Mary Alice' missions, crews all that kind of stuff I have a fair bit of info to research and people like Paul and Don have other additional information so it is slowly coming together. However and I think this is crucial, we collectively, need to get to the bottom of dispersal locations for individual aircraft. The late George Menzel managed to find the dispersal pan for 'Maiden USA' so the information is out there somewhere. I reckon Professor Paul and Don have a better handle on finding that information than the likes of myself so I'm leaning heavily on them and as rumours persist of housing going on the airfield site then information on aircraft dispersal spots are, in my opinion, becoming vital.<br/> Did you know there is a painting of the 'Mary Alice' by I think it's by Ron Hill I've put the image here for you to see, small size of course  &#x1F926;<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/manitowoc/Mary_Alice2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Tally Ho<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> Also, Dale...what do you mean.."Dispersal locations for individual aircraft"? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 2:34:31 PM 
| There were 50 concrete aircraft hardstandings for aircraft parking dispersed around the perimeter taxi track at Deenethorpe, hence "dispersals".<br/> <br/> Onto the model.....<br/> I'm assuming you've ordered the Revell (ex Monogram) 1/48 scale B-17G.<br/> If you've ordered the Pro-Modeller version, ignore most of this for now.<br/> <br/> The Monogram/Revell 1/48 B-17 is pretty much a representation of a B-17G-35-BO as it came out of the factory, which should be a good thing as that's the same production block (35-BO) as Mary Alice. However, Mary Alice was reworked at the Cheyenne Modification Center and the Air Depot in the UK, to meet the latest specifications prior to entering combat service.<br/> As built, she had a "stinger" type tail turret as provided as standard in the model and was in bare metal, after modification she was camouflage painted and had the latest "Cheyenne" type tail turret.<br/> The Pro-Modeller version of the kit comes with this new turret as an extra, the standard kit does not. There are conversion kits available to add the Cheyenne turret though.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 4:34:24 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Paul Bellamy":</span><br/>There were 50 concrete aircraft hardstandings for aircraft parking dispersed around the perimeter taxi track at Deenethorpe, hence "dispersals".<br/> <br/> Onto the model.....<br/> I'm assuming you've ordered the Revell (ex Monogram) 1/48 scale B-17G.<br/> If you've ordered the Pro-Modeller version, ignore most of this for now.<br/> <br/> The Monogram/Revell 1/48 B-17 is pretty much a representation of a B-17G-35-BO as it came out of the factory, which should be a good thing as that's the same production block (35-BO) as Mary Alice. However, Mary Alice was reworked at the Cheyenne Modification Center and the Air Depot in the UK, to meet the latest specifications prior to entering combat service.<br/> As built, she had a "stinger" type tail turret as provided as standard in the model and was in bare metal, after modification she was camouflage painted and had the latest "Cheyenne" type tail turret.<br/> The Pro-Modeller version of the kit comes with this new turret as an extra, the standard kit does not. There are conversion kits available to add the Cheyenne turret though.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> What were the purpose of the concret hardstandings? Again, excuse my "rookie" status.<br/> <br/> Also, I checked on my order of my Model, and it says it is a 1/48 B-17G...I tried locating teh thread here on the site, where I got the link from, to see which manufacturer it is made by. Reason I bought that particular model was, A)Figured since other members were buying it, that it would be what i was looking for and B)was inexpensive.<br/> <br/> I figure once I get this model worked out, if it is a "cheaper" model, I can step up to a "real" model after the fact. I plan on doing quite a bit of work, and creating a "scene". I have my garage @ my house, that I use for constructing/work/hobbies, and I also have a shop with an office, that I may create this scene.<br/> Not to get ahead of myself, as I want to take this model, do it best that I can, and go from there...however, does anyone know (sure you do) if someone makes teh german fighters that did battle against our Flying Fortress? What about our fighters..anyone make those? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 4:41:48 PM 
| Well, as I was jsut finishing up that last response, I got a knock on my door...MODEL IS HERE!!! OK, it is teh Revell B-17G Flying Fortress 1:48 scale....and looks impressive! I like!!<br/> <br/> <br/> Well, now I have my book I need to read, Masters in the Air, my model to build, my questions to ask...hahaha!!!<br/> <br/> <br/> Wish me luck guys!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 4:44:40 PM 
| Oh, and how can I tell difference in the "stinger" and "Cheyenne" style? Picture on the box shows a 2 gun tail gunner... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 5:38:21 PM 
| The hardstandings are there to stop the planes sinking into the mud....  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> Tail turret types:<br/> <br/> Stinger:<br/> Original fitment on the "big fin" B-17s, cramped, poor visibility for the gunner and restricted gun movement.<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/TTStinger.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Cheyenne:<br/> Note the vastly improved visibility for the gunner with the large window area, and the increased movement for the guns.<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/TTCheyenne.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Mary Alice's tail turret:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/MATT1.jpg' /><br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 6:18:23 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Paul Bellamy":</span><br/>The hardstandings are there to stop the planes sinking into the mud....  &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> Tail turret types:<br/> <br/> Stinger:<br/> Original fitment on the "big fin" B-17s, cramped, poor visibility for the gunner and restricted gun movement.<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/TTStinger.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Cheyenne:<br/> Note the vastly improved visibility for the gunner with the large window area, and the increased movement for the guns.<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/TTCheyenne.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Mary Alice's tail turret:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/MATT1.jpg' /><br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Ahhhhh, cool! yeah, that IS a big difference... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''EDanaII''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/EDanaII.jpg' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 6:51:50 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>All right I know I don't do computers, did I tell you how much I hate computers? oh no that was Ed,  &#x1f602; anyway I can't get the size right  &#x1F926;  but here is a taster</blockquote><br/> <br/> Let's hate them together!!! &#x1f609;<br/> <br/> (Sounding like Obi-Wan Kenobi) Don't give into Gates! That way only leads to the "Dork" Side! &#x1f609; <br/><br/><a href='/p2769.ashx'><img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/wmSig401st150p.gif' /></a><br/> <br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 4:12:40 AM 
| Mary A<br/> <br/> Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that  &#x1f622; <br/> <br/> Yahoo<br/> <br/> Dale <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 8:51:04 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>Mary A<br/> <br/> Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that  &#x1f622; <br/> <br/> Yahoo<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Whoa whoa whoa....is Mr. Knight still with us? if so, if there is anyway anyone that can tell him I would like to correspond with him...either by letter, phone, email, etc...Couple months before my Grandpa died, we were talking over the phone, as I had found the "old" website, and listing all of the crews. Well, the crew's on that one page, had the "Crew of such and such", and obviously there were ALOT of crews. So, talking with grandpa, and asked him, is there a name that you remember from your crew? He said, "well, I did fly with a couple different pilots, but the one that I remember, not only because we got along, but I also flew the majority of my missions with him, and that was Dan Knight".<br/> <br/> So, that is how I was able to find my grandpa's name on the site, by eliminating all of teh crews, by looking for Dan Knights name. Anyways, I would LOVE to be able to communicate with Mr. Knight and ask him about my Grandpa, and a whole bunch of other questions. So, I can always give MY info to anyone, and they can pass it on to Mr. Knight if they feel better doing that. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/28/2010 8:35:08 PM 
| My uncle, Henry Bernard McKinney, was a mechanic on the original Mary Alice. My uncle passed away in 2004, but I'm researching family genealogy and spoke with my aunt (his wife) just yesterday. She told me that she believes that Lietenant Dan Knight (last known rank, it may have changed later in his career) was still with us and living in Florida. I stumbled across this post trying to find photos of the original Mary Alice (not the replica on display in Duxford). If anyone can tell me if the above black and white photos are of the original aircraft and please let me know where I might find any others photos, I would be extremely grateful. I would like to attach them to my uncle's genealogical record. His family would be thrilled. Also, I believe that my aunt may have contact information for Dan Knight (I cannot guarantee that, I know that my uncle had his info at one time). If you contact me privately I may be able to provide it.<br/> <br/> Also, the research I've done shows that the original Mary Alice's Serial Number was 42-31983. Is this supposed to match the number on the tail?<br/> <br/> P.S. - How do you subscribe to a post? I can't find a "Subscribe" checkbox or option anywhere... &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <blockquote><span class='author'>"MaryAlice":</span><br/>(quote="Phoenix")Mary A<br/> <br/> Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that  &#x1f622; <br/> <br/> Yahoo<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Whoa whoa whoa....is Mr. Knight still with us? if so, if there is anyway anyone that can tell him I would like to correspond with him...either by letter, phone, email, etc...Couple months before my Grandpa died, we were talking over the phone, as I had found the "old" website, and listing all of the crews. Well, the crew's on that one page, had the "Crew of such and such", and obviously there were ALOT of crews. So, talking with grandpa, and asked him, is there a name that you remember from your crew? He said, "well, I did fly with a couple different pilots, but the one that I remember, not only because we got along, but I also flew the majority of my missions with him, and that was Dan Knight".<br/> <br/> So, that is how I was able to find my grandpa's name on the site, by eliminating all of teh crews, by looking for Dan Knights name. Anyways, I would LOVE to be able to communicate with Mr. Knight and ask him about my Grandpa, and a whole bunch of other questions. So, I can always give MY info to anyone, and they can pass it on to Mr. Knight if they feel better doing that.(/quote) <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/28/2010 9:56:32 PM 
| Mail me at the [|historian@401bg.org] Mr. Knight is still with us and is in Orlando.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/28/2010 10:06:12 PM 
| <blockquote>How do you subscribe to a post? I can't find a "Subscribe" checkbox or option anywhere... </blockquote><br/> <br/> No this software does not have that as far as I know but I will ask if something like that is available for it.<br/> <br/> Also yes normally it does carry the serial number you speak of and I think you are confused.  The damaged tail is the Mary Alice but doesn't show the tail number.  Paul was showing the difference in the tail gun position construction.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 12:20:38 AM 
| Thanks for the clarification Don. I just replied to your previous post. I would really appreciate any information that you could provide about the Mary Alice.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''EDanaII''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/EDanaII.jpg' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 8:15:32 AM 
| I thought the subscription functionality was working on this forum, but, come to think of it, I've never received any responses to posts I've subscribed to... I will look into it, but this will likely take some time, so please be patient. &#x1f642; <br/><br/><a href='/p2769.ashx'><img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/wmSig401st150p.gif' /></a><br/> <br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 9:17:45 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>My uncle, Henry Bernard McKinney, was a mechanic on the original Mary Alice. My uncle passed away in 2004, but I'm researching family genealogy and spoke with my aunt (his wife) just yesterday. She told me that she believes that Lietenant Dan Knight (last known rank, it may have changed later in his career) was still with us and living in Florida. I stumbled across this post trying to find photos of the original Mary Alice (not the replica on display in Duxford). If anyone can tell me if the above black and white photos are of the original aircraft and please let me know where I might find any others photos, I would be extremely grateful. I would like to attach them to my uncle's genealogical record. His family would be thrilled. Also, I believe that my aunt may have contact information for Dan Knight (I cannot guarantee that, I know that my uncle had his info at one time). If you contact me privately I may be able to provide it.<br/> <br/> Also, the research I've done shows that the original Mary Alice's Serial Number was 42-31983. Is this supposed to match the number on the tail?<br/> <br/> P.S. - How do you subscribe to a post? I can't find a "Subscribe" checkbox or option anywhere... &#x1f609; <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> (quote="MaryAlice")(quote="Phoenix")Mary A<br/> <br/> Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that  &#x1f622; <br/> <br/> Yahoo<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Whoa whoa whoa....is Mr. Knight still with us? if so, if there is anyway anyone that can tell him I would like to correspond with him...either by letter, phone, email, etc...Couple months before my Grandpa died, we were talking over the phone, as I had found the "old" website, and listing all of the crews. Well, the crew's on that one page, had the "Crew of such and such", and obviously there were ALOT of crews. So, talking with grandpa, and asked him, is there a name that you remember from your crew? He said, "well, I did fly with a couple different pilots, but the one that I remember, not only because we got along, but I also flew the majority of my missions with him, and that was Dan Knight".<br/> <br/> So, that is how I was able to find my grandpa's name on the site, by eliminating all of teh crews, by looking for Dan Knights name. Anyways, I would LOVE to be able to communicate with Mr. Knight and ask him about my Grandpa, and a whole bunch of other questions. So, I can always give MY info to anyone, and they can pass it on to Mr. Knight if they feel better doing that.(/quote)(/quote)<br/> <br/> <br/> Well, I can tell you that the info you find on this forum will be plentiful, and if you ahve a question, I can GUARANTEE someone will have an answer (well, if of course, that question pertains to WWII/401st, etc... &#x1f642; )<br/> <br/> Yes, teh black and white is of teh real Mary Alice (the pic of teh DAMAGED tail, is teh Mary Alice) <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 9:24:11 AM 
| Most have seen these, as these are teh most common, but in case you have not, here ya go.....<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/Plane_Mary20Alice.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/Crew_McKnight3MaryAlice.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Here is a shot of my Grandpa (of course, Top Turret on teh Mary Alice (I also have a thread started, with every mission my Grandpa flew, of which @ 25 of them were on the Mary Alice, with dates):<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/DSCN1359.jpg' /> <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 9:26:17 AM 
| That fist pic, (side view of Mary Alice)if memory serves correctly, was taken June or July, 1944 <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 10:55:29 AM 
| Thanks so much for sharing the photos. I'll speak to my aunt and see if my uncle had any photos that I could share. My uncle was part of the Mary Alice's ground crew (mechanic), but he knew the crewmen's names like it was yesterday. I know how proud you must be of your grandfather. <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 11:56:58 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Thanks so much for sharing the photos. I'll speak to my aunt and see if my uncle had any photos that I could share. My uncle was part of the Mary Alice's ground crew (mechanic), but he knew the crewmen's names like it was yesterday. I know how proud you must be of your grandfather.</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> You are quite welcome....I have a couple more for you coming up..and YES, ANY photo's that you have from that time/era (including of your Uncle), please share. Yes, VERY proud of my Grandpa (I carry his compass @ with me 24/7), also building a B-17G Mary Alice replica (model), AND, I am having my grandpa's portrait, along with the Mary Alice, tattoo'd on my back as well.<br/> <br/> Here are a couple more shots (and of course, even though you did not request the IWM in Duxford Mary Alice, I have included some of those that are not seen as much....<br/> <br/> here is a shot of the "wrong side" (no name) in the IWM...<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/GrandpaMaryAlice3.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> Now, here is a shot of teh jacket they wore, and we THINK this is actually my Grandpa. He said when he was alive, that he was not 100% positive this was him, but he did remember "posing" for a picture modeling thier jacket, and it DOES look like my Grandpa from behind (I also know that alot of the guys looked very similar from behind like this)<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/Grandpa.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> Here is a shot from "a far"..again, in teh IWM, but not the "close up" that most see. I like this pic, because you can really start to see the wongspan next to other planes, and see how big these planes really were:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/GrandpaMaryAlice4.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Couple more coming in a few minutes... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 11:59:07 AM 
| OK, some damage shots...<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/MaryAlice.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/MaryAlice4.jpg' /> <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 12:06:40 PM 
| And a couple more (the damage shots, are again, courtesy of Paul, here from the forum) you will find out if you hang @ here enough, that Paul and Don are "the guys in the know" and a few others that have been very helpful as well, like Edana (but EVERYONE is helpful and great @ here):<br/> <br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/MaryAlice3.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/MaryAlice2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/Gen414/MaryAlice1.jpg' /><br/> <br/> Also, you may or may not know, but afer doing ALOT of homework on the Mary Alice, some considered the Mary Alice to be the MOST heavily damaged Bomber in teh entire war (in the 8th Air Force, I should say), and NOT get shot down! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 12:13:26 PM 
| @sstephenson, how about this for some info on teh Mary Alice (again, courtesy of Paul):<br/> <br/> <br/> Your Grandfather's plane was B-17G-35-BO 42-31983, built by Boeing in their No.2 Plant at Boeing Field, Seattle. <br/> The 42 on the serial number is the fiscal year the aircraft was ordered by the US Government, although she was probably not actually built until the second half of 1943.<br/> She was flown to the Modification Center at Cheyenne in January 1944 to be upgraded to the current requirements, whereupon she was officially accepted by the USAAF and flown across the Atlantic for delivery to the ETO.<br/> She was originally allocated to the 401st's 615th Bomb Squadron in March 1944 and bore the markings IY-G.<br/> At some point later in the war, probably March 1945, she was transferred to the 613th Bomb Squadron, and the markings were changed to IN-G to reflect this.<br/> There were a lot of these inter-squadron transfers at this time, as all the 401st's radar-equipped Pathfinder B-17s were concentrated into the 615th in exchance for the 615th's standard B-17s.<br/> After VE Day, she was flown back to the USA with most of the 401st's surviving B-17s, and was officially transferred out of the 401st on the 6th June 1945.<br/> At this point she was delivered to one of the large storage facilities in the USA, in this case probably the wartime AAF Gunnery School airbase at Kingman AAF in Arizona, and eventually transferred to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation for disposal. In a few cases this meant aircraft were sold intact, the majority were cut up for scrap and melted down for the metal, which is what appears to have happened to "Mary Alice".<br/> <br/> The aircraft on display representing "Mary Alice" at IWM Duxford is B-17G-95-DL Serial 44-83735, built by Douglas at their Long Beach Plant in the spring of 1945, being delivered to the USAAF in May 1945, too late to see WWII service.<br/> Her subsequent history is well recorded:<br/> <br/> 31 May 1945 - Received by the Maintenance Division, Syracuse Army Air Base, New York - placed into storage having flown 20hrs 25mins.<br/> 2 Nov 1945 - A further 35mins were flown before the aircraft was dropped from the USAAF inventory by transfer to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation Altus AAF Oklahoma - apparently remained at Syracuse.<br/> 21 Feb 1947- Received at Altus for Transocean Air Lines. Accepted by Samuel L Wilson who was later to fly the aircraft for Col. Soriano.<br/> 22 May 1947 - Registered to Transocean Air Lines of Oakland Municipal Airport, California as NL68269.<br/> 1947/48 - AAHS record that the aircraft was used regularly for flights between Oakland and Manila.<br/> 7 Oct 1948 - Recorded as received at Oakland California. It is assumed that the refitting of the interior to an executive configuration occurred prior to this date.<br/> 23 Nov 1948 - Sold to Colonel Andres Soriano of San Francisco - bill of sale from Transocean Air Lines. <br/> The aircraft was fitted with a seven seat lounge in the nose position, toilet, buffet with drinks cabinet, refrigerator and office. Extra fuel tanks were installed in the bomb bay and new autopilot fitted.<br/> 12 Jan 1949 - Registered to Colonel Soriano then President of Philippine Air LInes and named 'San Miguel'. Flown regularly between Oakland and Manila by Captain Wilson who was on loan from Transocean Air lines.<br/> 14 Oct.1949 - Bill of sale-purchased by General Council of the Assemblies of God Inc., Springfield, Missouri.<br/> 28 Oct 1949 - Registered to the Assemblies of God and renamed Ambassador 11. It replaced Ambassador 1, a Curtiss C46 Commando, having longer range and greater four engined safely in its task of flying missionaries to South America, Europe, Africa and Asia. The nose eventually carried names of 38 countries which Ambassador 11 had visited in its first year of operation.<br/> Jan 1950 - First journey of Ambassador 11 was to Mexico City.<br/> 20 July 1951 - A bill of sale to Albert J Leeward. The sale was forced by increased insurance costs caused by the Korean War and other trouble spots. Regular scheduled airline services were also improving by this time.<br/> 28 Aug 1951 - Formally registered to Albert J Leeward.<br/> 1952 - Sold to the office of the Air Attache French Government in Washington - CAA cancelled the registration on 3 Nov 1954.<br/> 30 Dec 1952 - Received by Institute Geographique Nationale at Creil near Paris, France with 1475 airframe hours. Converted for aerial survey work.<br/> 18 Feb 1972 - Grounded at Creil after flying 6808 hrs and 40mins and cannibalised for spares to keep other B-17s flying.<br/> 20 Nov 1973 - Offered for sale without engines, instruments or radios for 30,000 Francs.<br/> May 1975 - Purchased by Euroworld Ltd. together with an airworthy B-17 44-85784 (F-BGSR) later to become G-BEDF - 'Sally B' of B-17 Preservation Ltd. Both aircraft arrived at Duxford later that month.<br/> January 1978 - After being used for spares to maintain 'Sally B', the aircraft was bought by the Imperial War Museum who started a major re-conversion and conservation programme to restore the aircraft, now called Mary Alice back to its wartime configuration. The aircraft now carries the marking of B-17G 42-31983 as flown by Lieutenant Dan Knight of the 615th Bomb Squadron, 401st Bombardment Group, based at Deenethorpe in Northampshire, England 1944.<br/> <br/> <br/> The IWM have this statement on file:<br/> <br/> <br/> This B-17 has been rebuilt and painted to represent B-17G serial number 42-31983 which served with the 615th Bomb Squadron, 401st Bomb Group, at Deenethorpe, Northamptonshire from March 1944 to May 1945. <br/> Known to have flown at least 98 combat missions the bomber incurred battle damage on several, and was shot up severely on five. In combat actions a crew member was killed and five wounded, one of whom received a Distinguished Service Cross, second highest US award for gallantry. At the end of the war Mary Alice was probably the most battle scarred B-17 in the 8th Air Force, but still airworthy enough to be flown back across the Atlantic to the USA. <br/> Mary Alice was named by its original pilot, Dan Knight, for his mother.<br/> The true identity of this B-17G is serial 44-83735, built in 1945 and delivered too late to see war service. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 1:37:30 PM 
| Wow, thanks so much. Terrific photos and information. I will check with my aunt and see if she has any photos. I don't think she owns a computer, let alone a scanner, but I may be able to enlist the help of one of my cousins. I'll see what they can find and get back to you as soon as I can. <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 6:42:17 PM 
| To: Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"<br/> <br/> Can you please PM me? I have a question for you regarding the flight logs for the Mary Alice. Thank you. <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''EDanaII''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/EDanaII.jpg' /></div><br/>3/1/2010 9:59:57 PM 
| Derrick,<br/> <br/> You might wanna consider including your name in your sig, so Steve can address you in a much shorter manner. &#x1f642; Just sumthin' to consider. <br/><br/><a href='/p2769.ashx'><img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/wmSig401st150p.gif' /></a><br/> <br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>3/2/2010 3:56:53 PM 
| Thanks to Don, here's a photo of Mary Alice in flight, well part of her at least:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/401%20pix/MA2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> She's in the lower left corner, and seems to be part-way through having her vertical stabiliser and rudder replaced. The new parts are in natural metal finish, the rest of the airframe visible is still Olive Drab.<br/> It's probably at temporary paint job, as it's unfinished and the S in the triangle is a bit oversize. Still, maybe that compensates for the teeny-weeny G underneath.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> PB <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>3/2/2010 9:25:09 PM 
| Small is right!  And from further looking at the full aircraft in the background is IN-0 Morning Star of the 613th BS, also was with the 615th BS 42-31730.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/3/2010 11:57:46 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>To: Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"<br/> <br/> Can you please PM me? I have a question for you regarding the flight logs for the Mary Alice. Thank you.</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Yes I can, but may take me awhile to get back with you. For some reason I can only PM FROM MY WORK COMPUTER..my home computer does not allow me to PM on this website for some strange reason.<br/> <br/> Oh, my name is Derrick Morris <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/3/2010 12:00:15 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"EDanaII":</span><br/>Derrick,<br/> <br/> You might wanna consider including your name in your sig, so Steve can address you in a much shorter manner. &#x1f642; Just sumthin' to consider.</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Hahahaha....will add it to it...sure. Hahahahaha! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/3/2010 12:03:31 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Paul Bellamy":</span><br/>Thanks to Don, here's a photo of Mary Alice in flight, well part of her at least:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/ramc181/401%20pix/MA2.jpg' /><br/> <br/> She's in the lower left corner, and seems to be part-way through having her vertical stabiliser and rudder replaced. The new parts are in natural metal finish, the rest of the airframe visible is still Olive Drab.<br/> It's probably at temporary paint job, as it's unfinished and the S in the triangle is a bit oversize. Still, maybe that compensates for the teeny-weeny G underneath.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> PB</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Paul and Don...even though it is a small portion of it, it is STILL her!!! And guys...tears were brought to my eye's as I have been looking all over for an "action" shot of her, and to find one because of you guys...I really don't have the words. So, will give a simple, but joyous THANKS! Means the world to me to have that... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/4/2010 5:48:34 PM 
| Yes, Paul and Don, thanks so much for that photo. It's terrific.<br/> <br/> Derrick,<br/> <br/> Not a problem. You can PM me when you get the chance if you like. What I was going to ask you is if you have access to crew records for the Mary Alice's flights. Sounded like you may have them for your grandfather. What I wanted to try to find out was whether or not any of the entries may contain my uncle's name. While he was part of the Mary Alice's ground crew, he did tell me not long before he passed away that he had flown on a couple missions when they didn't have enough men for a full crew. Unfortunately this means that one or more of the crew had been recently lost.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>3/4/2010 7:30:03 PM 
| Steve,<br/> <br/> I have just looked through all of the missions loading lists and am sorry to say that your uncles name doesn't appear on any of the listed crew loading lists.  Now maybe they couldn't list him I don't know and only have these records to go by.  Maybe you can confirm the information from Mr. Knight if you have tried to contact him.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/5/2010 3:14:37 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Yes, Paul and Don, thanks so much for that photo. It's terrific.<br/> <br/> Derrick,<br/> <br/> Not a problem. You can PM me when you get the chance if you like. What I was going to ask you is if you have access to crew records for the Mary Alice's flights. Sounded like you may have them for your grandfather. What I wanted to try to find out was whether or not any of the entries may contain my uncle's name. While he was part of the Mary Alice's ground crew, he did tell me not long before he passed away that he had flown on a couple missions when they didn't have enough men for a full crew. Unfortunately this means that one or more of the crew had been recently lost.<br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> I will chck for you as soon as I get the chance. My Grandmother has my grandpa's flight book (last time I saw the actual log, was @ 8-10 years ago). My mother had access to it couple weeks ago, and she jotted down his flights/time/date/where, but that's it. Now, from what I remember, his book was pretty detailed, but not sure what else he wrote down in his book. Once I am able to actually put my hands on the book, I plan on posting up that info here (as long as it is not personal info that should not be shared of course).<br/> Now, when will that be? Not sure...my Grandmother is still grieving very hard, and even though my Grandpa left the flight book and more stuff, to my Mom...My Grandmother is not wanting to let it go yet, and my Mom is honoring her wishes. As I am sure you can understand, after my Grandmother and Grandfather being married for 64 years, she is missing him some kind of fierce <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/5/2010 3:17:11 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>Steve,<br/> <br/> I have just looked through all of the missions loading lists and am sorry to say that your uncles name doesn't appear on any of the listed crew loading lists.  Now maybe they couldn't list him I don't know and only have these records to go by.  Maybe you can confirm the information from Mr. Knight if you have tried to contact him.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Hey Don..was wondering if you got my email pertaining to Mr. Knight?<br/> Thanks<br/> Derrick <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>3/5/2010 9:48:57 PM 
| I have not received anything on Mr. Dan Knight?<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/5/2010 9:57:51 PM 
| Don and Derrick,<br/> <br/> Thanks very much for your replies. <br/> <br/> Thanks for looking at the info that you have available Don. I really appreciate it. I knew that it was a very long shot, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks again. <br/> <br/> Derrick, I completely understand about your grandmother. Take care of her.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/6/2010 8:57:45 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>I have not received anything on Mr. Dan Knight?<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> I sent an email to you few days back, asking if you could either forward an email to Mr. Knight for me, or if you could pass my contact info on to Mr. Knight. Was wanting to touchbase with him, if possible, and ask some questions pertaining to the Mary Alice and my grandpa. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/6/2010 9:00:46 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Don and Derrick,<br/> <br/> Thanks very much for your replies. <br/> <br/> Thanks for looking at the info that you have available Don. I really appreciate it. I knew that it was a very long shot, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks again. <br/> <br/> Derrick, I completely understand about your grandmother. Take care of her.<br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Anytime Steve, glad we could be of "some" help. yeah, grandma, understandably so, is taking this hard, as we all are. But her especially, let's just say that she has "changed", and is not for the better. My Mom is rotating nights wit my Aunt, they take turns spending the night with my grandma. <br/> Anyways, thanks and hope to have MORE info on the Mary Alice soon... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/13/2010 6:03:57 PM 
| I spoke to my Aunt and cousin today about any photos that they might have of the 401st planes, crews, etc. She said that she did have some. I have no idea what they may be, but I'll share as soon as I can. She's going to need to send them to me by mail so that I can scan them, so it'll take a little while. I'll keep you posted...<br/> <br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/14/2010 2:35:58 PM 
| Steve,<br/> <br/> I would have loved to have known more about your uncle and it is such a shame he has left us. I feel an affinity with anyone who served as groundcrew as I served as an aircraft technician, groundcrew, in the RAF for 26 years and I have always felt that groundcrew throughout the ages in all air arms never got or get the recognition they deserve. So it would be nice to get more information on this forum about any of the valiant lads who worked all hours in all kinds of conditions to make the bombing effort possible.<br/> I would guess that your uncle may have flown as a stand in for the flight engineer if he did the odd mission and not been recorded due to a time constraint. We did similar things on the helicopter fleet when things were tight but the groundcrew member standing in would not have recieved official recognition, as I said just a guess.<br/> I would like to hear more about your uncle and indeed any other marvellous groundcrew mechanics, electricians, armourers, radio guys etc who are out there.<br/> <br/> All the best<br/> <br/> 'The oily rag' aka Dale <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/14/2010 4:28:21 PM 
| Hello Dale,<br/> <br/> Thanks for the kind words. My uncle was a wonderfully kind man who could entertain me for hours with stories from his youth. Strangely enough though, I didn't learn about his service with the 401st and in Korea until late in his life. It was a part of his experience that he kept to himself. He did tell me that he had flown on a small number of missions and that he had never been so terrified in his life before or since. It was obviously something that he took great pride in, because he wanted his it noted on the marker in his final resting place. <br/> <br/> I agree with you whole heartedly that it would be great to remember those who served in support of the flight crews. They were very proud to have served as well. <br/> <br/> Another thing had occurred to me as well. It would certainly be nice to set up a site where members could share photographs of loved ones who have served with the 401st as well as their aircraft. There are quite a number of photo sharing application websites with free basic accounts. I don't know what setting something like that up might entail or cost for this group.<br/> <br/> Thanks again, and take care!<br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/16/2010 2:13:14 PM 
| Steve and Dale, very true...while SOME may over look the ground crew and others that did not actually fly, I for one do not. I know  (and I am sure most @ this site) that if not for teh ground crew, the guys that were flying, would not been able to!!!<br/> <br/> I also wanted to share with you guys, that the son of a crew member of teh Mary Alice has been in contact with me, and is trying to gather as much info as he can as well. Looks like he has some photo's that he is willing to share as well. Hopefully he can provide them to me, at least via email, so i can post some more findings/info up.<br/> <br/> Dale, did you ever get my email me asking you about Mr. Dan Knight? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/16/2010 2:16:02 PM 
| Also, Steve..I know this is a long shot, but did you see the picture that I posted? It is my "Pics inside" thread..I was finally able to get the picture with my grandpa and another, what we think anyways, another crew member with him. WE do not have a name for this gentleman that my grandpa took teh pic with...so, again, know it is a long shot, but check it out, and who knows, MAYBE your Uncle??????? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/16/2010 2:24:04 PM 
| Oh, and one more thing..i was able to find out that my grandpa did NOT fly every single one of his missions on teh Mary Alice, we know that at least 7 (possibly 8)of them were on other planes/crews. Now, reason that is important is that, on the days he did NOT fly with Mary Alice and his "normal" crew, he is NOT listed under ANY plane/crew on teh day that he flew (but not on Mary Alice)<br/> So, sice your Uncle was not part of a "crew" I would say odds/chances of you finding a report with his name on the list, is going to be tough, if not impossible. I am nto trying to deter you of course, just saying that records back then WERE incomplete.<br/> <br/> Also, it is NOT stopping me from trying to  locate the planes/crew he DID fly with, other than the Mary Alice, and i WILL continue to look, so don't give up hope just because you have not found it.<br/> <br/> I DID find out that for my grandpa's 31st mission, which was mission #131 total, the Mary Alice had been transfered to the 614th (from 615th), and I am trying to find out if he flew on the Mary Alice for his last mission. Now, so far, have not been able to verify that.<br/> <br/> I DID find out also, that my Grandpa flew on mission #100 of the War, and was on Mary Alice with Knight (Knight's last mission as I am lead to believe), which was June 25, 1944. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/18/2010 5:15:17 PM 
| Hello Derrick (and all),<br/> <br/> Thanks for asking. The crewman in the photo isn't my uncle, but it was certainly worth checking out. My uncle had a tall, rather thin build. He always had a flat-top crew cut for as long as I can remember. Half the guys there probably sported that look &#x1f603;.<br/> <br/> I knew the flight logs were a long shot, but it was worth a try.<br/> <br/> Take care, and I'll be in touch.<br/> <br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>3/19/2010 12:50:15 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Hello Derrick (and all),<br/> <br/> Thanks for asking. The crewman in the photo isn't my uncle, but it was certainly worth checking out. My uncle had a tall, rather thin build. He always had a flat-top crew cut for as long as I can remember. Half the guys there probably sported that look &#x1f603;.<br/> <br/> I knew the flight logs were a long shot, but it was worth a try.<br/> <br/> Take care, and I'll be in touch.<br/> <br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> WEll, like you said, was worth a shot. Also, not sure if I said this above or not but anotehr forum member has been in contact with me in regards to his Dad being part of the Mary Alice crew, and he too has photo's to share..of which exactly, not sure. We'll keep searching though, right??? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/9/2010 10:18:12 PM 
| I heard from my aunt this week. She and my cousin have sent a package containing some things relating to my uncle's time with the 401st. I'll post anything that may be of interest to you all when I receive it. Take care.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/10/2010 10:51:29 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>I heard from my aunt this week. She and my cousin have sent a package containing some things relating to my uncle's time with the 401st. I'll post anything that may be of interest to you all when I receive it. Take care.<br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Oh GREAT!!! Good to hear, thanks...ready to see some pics!!<br/> <br/> Picked up a book yesterday, FW190 vs B-17, mroe of a long magazine, but looks interesting. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/12/2010 10:04:13 PM 
| Today I received a package from my Aunt that contained copies of several photos as well as a mission record for the Mary Alice from November 26th 1943 to July 4th 1944. It does list my uncle (H.B. McKinney) as having flown on one mission to Berlin during that period on Feb 20th 1944. It also lists the following crew members: Clark, Bowlen, Scholtz, Perry, McKinney T., Dunn, Coleman, Carpenter, Garrett, Michel, Janca, Berstholdt, McKinney H., Rose, and Marx. I would attach a copy of the mission record, but I don't know how to post photos here yet. Maybe someone can help me out there. Thanks.<br/> <br/> As I have time, I'll post some of the other things. There is a copy of an article from "Fly Past, Britain's Aviation Monthly" from October 1992 titled "30 Missions with Mary Alice" which contains several photos. Some of these are pics that have already been posted here. There are also photos of several other planes from another publication and a few photos of my uncle and a short biography that was published in his small home town newspaper.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/13/2010 2:37:42 PM 
| A lot of people use Photo Bucket which  is a place you can upload pictures to.  Once it is online then you use the Img  button and input the path to the picture and it will appear in your post.<br/> <br/> Could you send me what you have to my email.<br/> <br/> Thanks Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/13/2010 9:05:56 PM 
| OK, I'm taking a whack at posting my first image. This is the Mary Alice Mission Record from my uncle's treasures. I'll post more as I have time to scan them. Does anyone know what the numbers are in the individual boxes?<br/> <br/> Steve<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/401st%20Bomber%20Group/MaryAliceFlightLog.jpg' /> <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 7:27:57 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Does anyone know what the numbers are in the individual boxes?</blockquote><br/> <br/> They are the last three digits of the serial number of the aircraft flown.<br/> <br/> I'm not sure what the names at the top correspond to, as they don't match any members of the aircrew.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''win-win''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 10:19:00 AM 
| Paul & Steve:<br/> <br/> Could the names across the top be the Squadron Ground Crew (or Chief) for the A/C assigned in the column?<br/> <br/> Win <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 10:23:41 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"win-win":</span><br/>Paul & Steve:<br/> <br/> Could the names across the top be the Squadron Ground Crew (or Chief) for the A/C assigned in the column?<br/> <br/> Win</blockquote><br/> <br/> That's probably it. My uncle was ground crew. I believe he was crew chief. So this is probably a maintenance schedule...?<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 3:14:42 PM 
| SUPER COOL FIND!!! <br/> <br/> Got any more pics for us? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 8:02:05 PM 
| Checking just a few the one's which are X'ed out and have an "*"are one's which went down on the date indicated.  Remember I didn't check them all.  Also some that are recorded I checked the mission reprot for that date and they weren't listed so that means they weren't identified as to who flew them that day.  It could be possible to narrow down some info here.  I would like to see all of these reports for all the aircraft.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 8:33:13 PM 
| I checked 11 Jan 1944 and it has the following:<br/> <br/> Aircraft Nr.<br/> 485  Not listed on Mission<br/> 091<br/> 833<br/> 193<br/> 057<br/> 843<br/> 904 Not listed on Mission<br/> 077<br/> 069 Not listed on Mission<br/> <br/> 809  Shot down<br/> 893  Shot down<br/> <br/> This is an interesting document.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/14/2010 11:20:13 PM 
| Hi guys,<br/> <br/> I'm glad if this document is helpful in some way. I'm not really sure what I'm looking at, but I can confirm that my uncle, H.B. McKinney was listed as a crew chief in an article that my aunt sent to me from their little home town newspaper. I know that my uncle told me that he was associated with the Mary Alice, so based on that I had assumed that each ground crew chief was associated with a particular aircraft. I don't know if this is the case or if the other names listed are those of other crew chiefs.<br/> <br/> Derrick,<br/> Yes I will certainly post other photos and the articles that my aunt sent to me. Tonight was "Science Night" at my youngest son's school and my wife and I were both helping out, so its been a busy few days since I got this info from my aunt. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have a chance to post more.<br/> <br/> Don,<br/> I had assumed that the X's meant that name at the top of the column was associated with that mission, but I'm not sure that makes sense. Can you help me understand what the purpose of the document is? Thanks.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 7:56:11 AM 
| Again, MANY thanks! AS Don said, this is a real interesting find, and one that I am sure guys like Don and Paul and crew can put to use, and learn some more interesting stuff out, so they can then explain it to us!! LOL!!<br/> <br/> But seriously, I know this form will be gone over and figured out by the pro's and soon enough will have lots to learn about it. That being said, it's things like this, the small things that some people may think are "nothing", turn out to be a huge "something". That is why ANYTHING I come across, either recent info, or past info, I try and post it.<br/> <br/> Just like that 1911 .45 I found on another website. Guy said the person it was assigned to, belonged to the Air Force during WWII, and was issued to himduring 1944, so I hopped on here, and was hoping that someone might know of him, or heard of him,. etc....I knew it was a long shot, but I knew if I didn't at least try, I had NO shot.<br/> <br/> Again, great find and keep it coming!!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 8:51:33 AM 
| <blockquote>Checking just a few the one's which are X'ed out and have an "*"are one's which went down on the date indicated. Remember I didn't check them all. Also some that are recorded I checked the mission reprot for that date and they weren't listed so that means they weren't identified as to who flew them that day. It could be possible to narrow down some info here. I would like to see all of these reports for all the aircraft.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> From previous page.  These are actual flights and not associated with maintenance of the aircraft.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 9:25:10 AM 
| Going through the form, a pattern seems to be emerging.<br/> That the names at the top are of the Crew Chiefs can be presumed correct.<br/> <br/> The form also appears to show:<br/> Individual aircraft taking off per mission.<br/> Aircraft reaching the target.<br/> Aircraft aborts, with reason for abort. (AB-P, AB-E, AB-F, etc.)<br/> Aircraft losses. (X)<br/> <br/> I'm not sure what the dot/asterisk signifies just yet, battle damage maybe?<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 3:19:01 PM 
| I would go with crew chiefs, and the * over the X is a ship shot down.  The ones I checked out were.  I have not checked the plain X out yet.  <br/> <br/> I checked 11 Jan 1944 and it has the following:<br/> <br/> Aircraft Nr.<br/> 485 Not listed on Mission<br/> 091<br/> 833<br/> 193<br/> 057<br/> 843<br/> 904 Not listed on Mission<br/> 077<br/> 069 Not listed on Mission<br/> <br/> As per the above all the ones not listed may have been flown by another squadron or of the 615th but not identified as of yet flying the aircraft.<br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 7:08:57 PM 
| I've had another look at the list:<br/> Aircraft marked with an X are aircraft lost, they do not show up again in the list afterwards.<br/> Aircraft marked with a * do show up again in the list, sometimes on the following mission, sometimes there is a gap.<br/> Aircraft marked with both * and X are also aircraft lost, so maybe the * doesn't signify damage after all, otherwise why bother recording it?<br/> <br/> I'll keep at it and report back if anything turns up.<br/> <br/> TTFN,<br/> PB <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 7:40:45 PM 
| I know I saw the astric all by it's self later and unsure what that means.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 8:52:51 PM 
| Also among my uncle's things was a four page article from "Fly Past, Britain's Aviation History Monthly." If there is no objection I can link to it here. If this is against website policy I can email it to those of you who contact me using a private message.The article contains three photos, all of which have been posted here before. The captions under the photos may not have been posted here. <br/> <br/> I also have some short articles and a couple photos on a single page that my cousin scanned for me. I'll try to make the articles readable using Photoshop and get them posted.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 9:04:10 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Also among my uncle's things was a four page article from "Fly Past, Britain's Aviation History Monthly." If there is no objection I can link to it here. If this is against website policy I can email it to those of you who contact me using a private message.The article contains three photos, all of which have been posted here before. The captions under the photos may not have been posted here. <br/> <br/> I also have some short articles and a couple photos on a single page that my cousin scanned for me. I'll try to make the articles readable using Photoshop and get them posted.<br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Steve, I can only PM from work computer, and probaly won't be ner it until Monday of next week, but if you want, you can email it to me:<br/> <br/> [mailto:logava@yahoo.com|logava@yahoo.com]<br/> <br/> Thanks again!<br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Side note:<br/> <br/> Guys, I got a call today from my Mom, and she said that her 2nd cousin found out that i was doing all of this research about Grandpa. She got my address, and is mailing me SOMETHING that either pertains to teh War or my Grandpa (or both), but not sure what exactly and neither did my Mom. She jsut told me that I should be expecting something. Once I get whatever it is, I will report back with what I have.<br/> <br/> Also, I got my book today, Mission 376!!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 10:01:26 PM 
| Sent Derrick. I'm just now reading it myself.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 11:31:54 PM 
| Post your link Steve.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/15/2010 11:46:12 PM 
| OK, here goes:<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/30%20Missions%20With%20Mary%20Alice/30Missions1.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/30%20Missions%20With%20Mary%20Alice/30Missions2.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/30%20Missions%20With%20Mary%20Alice/30Missions3.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/30%20Missions%20With%20Mary%20Alice/30Missions4.jpg' /> <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 12:16:29 AM 
| Here are a couple newspaper articles that my uncle had saved. The short biography was undoubtedly sent to my uncle by my aunt after it was published in their local paper. I removed the names of relatives from the article out of respect for their privacy. I apologize for the quality of these images, but I did the best I could to make them legible.<br/> <br/> Steve<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Newspaper%20Articles/CrewChief2.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Newspaper%20Articles/BlindedbyFlakNavigatorStickstoJob.jpg' /> <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 8:39:58 AM 
| WOW WOW WOW!!!!<br/> <br/> Just finished reading the article, and what a great piece. As I am sure most of you figured out, "Bill Sartor" is my Grandpa, William. Now, no one, and I mean NO ONE in my family has ever called Grandpa "Bill". Only thing we can think of is that Before/During the War, he DID go by "Bill", and when he came home he "changed". My grandpa, according to my Mom (she was born in '53) he always went by his middle name, Dale. My Grandma confirmed this (she married my grandpa in 1946) and she said from teh day she met him, he went by Dale. So, either a typo, or my Grandpa did in fact go by Bill during teh War.<br/> My grandpa DID hurt his shoulder (gave him aches/pains up to the day that he passed) on that first mission and did knock him out of commission for awhile.<br/> <br/> Will also say that they DID get ahold of my grandpa for that reunion, and even offered to fly Grandpa out there for it, but he said "No thanks". When grandpa got back from teh War, there was ONLY 2 times he ever got back on a plane, one was to fly to see my Mom, his daughter, get married. She got married in teh British Virgin Islands, so he couldn't drive there (obviously) so he had to fly.<br/> The second and last time was @ a year or so ago, he went to a local air show (he ALWAYS went to those though) and they were "selling" plane rides in a Bomber. Well, my Aunt (his daughter) told the people who my Grandpa was, they told him they would give him a ride for free. He did paid for it anways, as that was my grandpa and that was the 2nd and last time he got on a plane after teh WAr<br/> <br/> So, that was one reason my grandpa did not attend (did not want to fly) and teh other reason was he did not want to be @ "all that hoopla" (his words). He was just a very modest and quiet man, and thought that if he went, people would want to interview him and he thought that if he did, that people would see it as "bragging" and he wanted no part in that. He did not want people "making a fuss over me".<br/> <br/> I really believe that if that reunion would have taken place 10-15 years later, my Grandpa WOULD have gone. As he got older, he started to lose some of his quietness about him, and started to talk more about teh War (but NEVER in detail like in that article) and started to joke/smile alot more. <br/> <br/> In teh 87 years my grandpa was with us, he NEVER went to teh movie's. he NEVER had a credit card. He NEVER financed a vehicle. he NEVER mortaged a house. He had a garden in his backyard that he tended to. Couple times a year, he took my grandma out to dinner. He went to gym 6 days a week, and he watched sports on TV. Atteneded local air shows. Read teh newspapaer every morning. That's it. That's my Grandpa. He lead a very simple and ordinary life.<br/> <br/> Would like to add that eventhough he was as simple and quiet as they get, he CARED and loved his family. He doted on his Grandkids (and GREAT Grandkids), and we have this pic of him, at an airshow, with his ball cap on, my Aunt's youngest son, is sitting inhis lap, and they are both staring at teh planes. It's a GREAT pic of them. Anyways, I just wanted to add that even though he was quiet, he cared and loved deeply, but just not in a loud or outgoing way. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 3:21:00 PM 
| I guess your Grandpa sums up that generation world over, hard working, caring and modest, God bless um all. <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 4:52:41 PM 
| Yes Derrick, your grandfather sounds like quite a gentleman. I so admire the selfless courage that he and others mustered up to face the challenges of their generation.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 5:06:57 PM 
| It's a great article and loved reading it.  Thanks for posting it.  Boy I tell steve how to post an image and he goes wild!!!  Just kidding Steve keep it up.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 8:56:14 PM 
| I did my best to pull what detail I could out of these photocopied photos. I can't say for sure that these are all my uncle. The photo of the fellow in the Engineer/Gunner position (is that what you call it?) is labeled with the name "Byrom". The photo labeled 42-31064 is a mystery to me because based on what I found, that number was assigned to an aircraft named "Hey Lou". The nose art says "Little Moe_" (maybe?). Also, the gentleman wearing the dress uniform looks like my uncle, but I don't know if a master sergeant crew chief would have had those duds.<br/> <br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Copied%20Photos/42-31064.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Copied%20Photos/BrickBuilding1.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Copied%20Photos/BrickBuilding2.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Copied%20Photos/Field.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Copied%20Photos/Tail.jpg' /><br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/sstephenson61/Copied%20Photos/TopTurret.jpg' /> <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/16/2010 9:37:25 PM 
| I see now... The number on the photo is 42-3106<u>9</u>, not 42-3106<u>4</u>. This is Little Moe<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/17/2010 8:09:59 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>I guess your Grandpa sums up that generation world over, hard working, caring and modest, God bless um all.</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Yes you could. When Grandpa was alive, along with his Brothers and Sisters, we would go up to East Texas (where my Grandpa moved to after the War) and where he met my Grandma...we would go up there occassionally to visit his family (my Mom's Uncles' and Aunt's, and then of course her cousin's, etc...) So, obviously I was younger, was @ 7 or 8 and we went up there until i was @ 14 or 15. Anyways, being @ them, and looking back on it, was SO DIFFERENT then how it is today.<br/> You figure, when I was 7/8 years old, was late 1970's and went up there until early/mid 1980's and Grandpa would have been in his late 50's/early 60's @ this time (same with his brother/sisters), and there was NEVER a television on (IF that house w went to even had one!!!) I remember going to my Mom's Aunt Pete's house, and staying there, and she did not have a TV in her house. Just this old radio. And they would jsut sit @ and talk. Eat dinner or lunch. Women cleaned up. Men talked. Then came teh card playing, or dominoe's. But no computer's or TV's or cell phone's.<br/> <br/> Guess what I am saying is, if you look back on it, seems like a time warp, but in a GOOD way.  Today's generation, just is so "hustle and bustle", and everything has to be "given" to you....There are companies for: lawn care, house cleaning, dog walking, food DELIVERY, etc...People don't stop to enjoy life anymore, always go go go. And I became like that to, until my eye's were opened a few years ago. Let's just say that a few things happened, inlcuding my Mother In Law (whom I loved and respected VERY much) passing away after a battle with cancer, that made me step back and take a look at things. It's why my kids stay home with me now. I had them in daycare (ages 5 and 2), but me being self employed, was like, WAIT A MINUTE...I own my own shop, why can't I take kids with me to work? Or stay at home when I can work out of the house? Sure, means harder work for me, but I now get to enjoy watching my kid grow up, and not rely on a daycare to do it for me!!<br/> <br/> Anyways, I know I get long winded alot of times, and I can get off topic more times than not. guess what I am saying is that, my grandpa's generation WAS a real "Gentlemans" generation, and the 60's/70's really changed all of that, with drugs mainly.<br/> <br/> Look at film footage at BASEBALL games from the 20's and 30's, up until the 40's and 50's...most men are wearing hats with suits/coat/ties. Started to change in late 60's.<br/> <br/> Not saying one generation is better than the other, just saying that it is different and my Grandpa STAYED with his generation up until teh day he passed, but even he DID start to change some towards the end.<br/> <br/> Whew, long winded, sorry. &#x1F926; <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/17/2010 8:41:34 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Yes Derrick, your grandfather sounds like quite a gentleman. I so admire the selfless courage that he and others mustered up to face the challenges of their generation.<br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Thank you Steve, and even though your post here is simliar to dale's above, no need for me to get long winded like my above post, LOL!!<br/> I will say that you are absolutely right, teh courage that these guys faced is an understatement. I think there are 2 types of courage (a friend of mine actually used this analogy, that I now will use) the guy that has no time to think, just throws himself on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers/crew, that type of courage, and then there is the guy tht KNOWS what he is going up against. The guy that hops in that plane KNOWING what teh odds are that he is not gonna come home!<br/> Not saying either courage is lesser than teh other, NOT AT ALL. I will say that KNOWING what you are doing (hopping in that plane for example) and doing it anyways, is just so......(don't have a word for it, but I think you know what I mean).<br/> <br/> I can also add that even though some guys were reluctant to get on that plane, some got "scared", some were eager to hop on, some were brash about it, some were excited about it...NONE of them have less courage than the next, because they still ALL GOT ON!<br/> <br/> I would like to think that I am a pretty strong mentally, and even though I am an emotional guy, I feel that not much "scares" me. That leads me to this:<br/> Back when I was @ 19, had flunked out of College, working pipeline construction, wondering what to do with my life and i had ALWAYS respected our military. Grandpa was in WWII (obviously), and i had 2 Uncles serve in Vietnam, and 1 became a police officer after teh War. So, wasn't like my family was voided of military, but wasn't like we had a long list of military background either in our family. Anyways, I was between jobs (pipeline) and decided i was joining. Talked to a few recruiters, and decided I was going National Guard, because I was gonna be "stationed" (was gonna do the part time) and do my one weekend a month at Ellington Air Field, which was about 3 or 4 miles from my house at the time, and was gonna be a helicopter mechanic.<br/> <br/> So, I go down, take my physical, spend teh night in downtown Houston, and all I had to do was "sign on the dotted line". Told my recruiter to let me go home, think/talk it over and would let him know that afternoon. So, got home, walked into bedroom, and there is message on my answering machine. Check it, and it's my Welder (I was a welder helper at the time) saying we have a job to do. I thought that was telling me something, as I had been out of work for @ 3-4 weeks, with not one phone call/job offer, and then day I get home, wanting to think about it, there is a message for me.<br/> Now, MOST people, when they go down and take their physical, they have already made up mind, and are signing RIGHT THEN!  but something was telling me to think about it more, so when got message, i was like, "Hmmmmm, is He (God) trying to tell me something?"<br/> Reason i say that is, MY ONLY reason I did not want to sign up was the fear of War. I wasn't sure how I could handle it if I had to be called into action. That was it. That was my reason. Sure, the job/message "helped" make my decision, but honestly with myself and you guys, it was just an excuse is all it was. <br/> But, I will say this, I really did not have anyone to talk to to help me decide. My dad was long gone, being the drunk that he was. My Mom was out of the country (remember, she got married in British Virgin Isalnds? Well, she was living there on a small island, Tortola) I was 19, living alone, no guidance. And back then, my grandpa was not one, as a kid I felt comfortable talking to about something like this. I just felt that he was going to be biased towards joining sinc he served. Looking back, I guess that was a mistake on my part, in not giving him due credit, as I now realize he would have been teh PERFECT person to talk to about it (wasn't until I reached my later 20's that I REALLY got to know grandpa).<br/> <br/> ANYWAYS, I know I got long winded again, LOL! I just wanted to say that it DOES take alot of courage just to "sign on the dotted line", and since I was in that situation many years ago, and after reading about all of these events, I CAN REALLY RESPECT and admire you guys that joined. I mean, the fear of knowing that there was a POSSIBILTY of going to war, was enough to stop me from joining, but you guys signed anyways. Wow...I can't thank you enough for you guys doing what you do out there. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/17/2010 8:49:12 AM 
| OK, back on topic.<br/> <br/> Byrom, well, I checked the crew list under Knight and my Grandpa, and no last name is Byrom, and I found no FIRST initial B, but there are a couple MIDDLE initial "B"s, so maybe a crew member went by his middle name (like my Grandpa) and his name was Byrom????<br/> <br/> <br/> Don/Paul, is there a way to find out the middle names of teh crew under Knight???? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>4/17/2010 9:15:58 AM 
| The NARA Enlistment Database shows 12 Enlisted Men with the first or last name Byrom assigned to the Air Corps, who could have completed training and seen overseas service during WWII.<br/> <br/> 18169921	Byrom Brantley of Louisiana, born 1924, enlisted 1942.<br/> 14031019	Jack E Byrom, born 1920, enlisted in 1940.<br/> 14131987	Richard J Byrom of Florida, born 1926, enlisted 1944.<br/> 18038282	Ray L Byrom of Texas, born 1918, enlisted 1941.<br/> 18063694	Ray H Byrom of Texas, born 1920, enlisted 1941.<br/> 18067440	John C Byrom Jr of Texas, born 1912, enlisted 1942.<br/> 18085368	Jarold J Byrom of Oklahoma, born 1919, enlisted 1942.<br/> 18155500	William L Byrom of Texas, born 1922, enlisted 1943.<br/> 18178992	Cloyce E Byrom of Texas, born 1920, enlisted 1942.<br/> 18202360	John F Byrom of Texas, born 1923, enlisted 1943.<br/> 18217589	W F Byrom of Texas, born 1923, enlisted 1942.<br/> 38481565	LaVerne Byrom of Texas, born 1916, enlisted 1943.<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''win-win''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/17/2010 10:22:07 AM 
| Gents:<br/> <br/> Bingo, Maybe:  The 1947 401st Directory lists a W. F. Byrom, RFD Rhome, Texas.<br/> <br/> Win Bryson <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''Paul Bellamy''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/Paul Bellamy.jpg' /></div><br/>4/17/2010 10:52:55 AM 
| That matches the rest of the enlistment file for 18217589 W F Byrom of Wise County, TX, Rhome being in that county.<br/> <br/> That leads to:<br/> # ID: I952<br/> # Name: William F. Byrom<br/> # Nickname: Dub<br/> # Sex: M<br/> # Birth: 6 DEC 1923 in Wise County, Texas<br/> # Note:<br/> Texas Index to Probate Birth Records<br/> Byrom, W. F., Wise, 12-06-1923, 677305<br/> <br/> He enlisted in the Army Air Corp as a Private at Dallas, TX on 29 NOV 1942. He was single living in Wise Co., TX. Army Serial#: 18217589 (NARA Records-JULY 2004)<br/> <br/> Lives in Burleson, TX as of APR 2003.<br/> # Change Date: 20 AUG 2009 at 11:40:04<br/> <br/> Father: Floyd Henry Byrom b: 14 FEB 1898 in Wise County, Texas<br/> Mother: Hazel Jane Lisby b: 14 NOV 1900 in Alabama<br/> <br/> All the best,<br/> Paul <br/><br/>Paul Bellamy<br/> <img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/resource1.png' /><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/18/2010 1:00:17 PM 
| GOOD detective work Paul and Win-Win!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/19/2010 1:49:42 PM 
| GUYS YOU ARE NOT GONNA BELIEVE THIS!!!!! I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH A WILLIAM F BYROM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br/> <br/> HE HAS  A HUGE BOOK OF INFO FROM THE WAR AND IS GONNA CHECK TO SEE IF HE HAS ANY PICS OF HIM AND MY GRANDPA!!!!<br/> <br/> I GAVE HIM MY PHONE NUMBER, AND HE IS GONNA CALL ME BACK IN THE NEXT COUPLE/FEW DAYS ONCE HE HAS TIME TO GO THROUGH IT. HE WAS SO EXCITED THAT I CALLED!!!! I COULDN'T GET HIM OFF THE PHONE!!! hahahahaHahahahaha!!!<br/> <br/> Steve, is there ANY way you can either mail a copy of that picture of Byrom hanging out the Mary Alice to him?<br/> <br/> or mail to me, and i can mail it to him? he was tickled pink to know that we had a picture of him (or pretty sure it is him) and he would love to see. He asked me if he was wearing a BALL CAP in the picture, and I said, well, you ARE wearing a hat, and looks like it might be a ballcap, and he said, well, if it is then it's me!! HAHAHA!! He said, I always use to goof @ and wanted to get pics of everything, so I have lots of pics from back then along with my book I use to write down names and such.<br/> <br/> OH WOW GUYS THIS IS JUST GREAT!!!!!!<br/> <br/> Steve, let me know what you can do on that picture, OK??<br/> <br/> Thanks<br/> <br/> Oh, if you can mail it to him, let me know, and I can get you his address. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/19/2010 2:57:43 PM 
| Hi Derrick, <br/>  <br/> That is amazing! Who knew a snapshot from my uncle's things could wind up <br/> putting you in contact with someone who may have known your grandfather. Be sure <br/> to tell him that my uncle held on to the photo all these years. By the way, my <br/> uncle's name was Henry Bernard McKinney, but he always went by his middle name <br/> and pronounced it like "burr-nurd" (accent on the first syllable).<br/>  <br/> I'd be more than happy to send you a copy of the photo, but as you can see from <br/> my post, its made from a photocopy that my aunt sent to me. I'll ask her <br/> daughter (my cousin) if there's any way that they can have a print made from the <br/> original. My aunt lives in the middle of nowhere, so it might be a while before <br/> my cousin makes it over to her house and can take it somewhere to have a print <br/> made. The nearest sizable town is at least 25 miles from my aunt, and my cousin <br/> lives about 120 miles from her. In the mean time I'll send you (or Mr. Byrom) a <br/> copy of what I've got. Just send me an address. <br/>  <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/20/2010 7:50:49 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>Hi Derrick, <br/>  <br/> That is amazing! Who knew a snapshot from my uncle's things could wind up <br/> putting you in contact with someone who may have known your grandfather. Be sure <br/> to tell him that my uncle held on to the photo all these years. By the way, my <br/> uncle's name was Henry Bernard McKinney, but he always went by his middle name <br/> and pronounced it like "burr-nurd" (accent on the first syllable).<br/>  <br/> I'd be more than happy to send you a copy of the photo, but as you can see from <br/> my post, its made from a photocopy that my aunt sent to me. I'll ask her <br/> daughter (my cousin) if there's any way that they can have a print made from the <br/> original. My aunt lives in the middle of nowhere, so it might be a while before <br/> my cousin makes it over to her house and can take it somewhere to have a print <br/> made. The nearest sizable town is at least 25 miles from my aunt, and my cousin <br/> lives about 120 miles from her. In the mean time I'll send you (or Mr. Byrom) a <br/> copy of what I've got. Just send me an address. <br/>  <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> PERFECT!!!<br/> <br/> Yes, at this point, ANYTHING is better than nothing. What we can do is (as you said) get him a pic, even if it is bad quality, BUT, let him know with a letterhead, that we are working on trying to get him a BETTER picture to him. I will send you his address to your email, ok??<br/> <br/> THIS IS AWESOME!!!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/20/2010 9:12:38 AM 
| I'll print a copy of the photo this evening and get it sent to him. I've emailed my cousin to see if I can get a copy of the original. Like I said, that may take some time because of the distance between the folks involved.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/20/2010 10:15:32 AM 
| Steve, NO worries. What I did was type up a letter this morning, and gonna send it to him, and among other things, I told him that the pic that is being sent to him right now, is of poor quality, but we are TRYING to get him a better one. I also told him briefly what we were working with and such, and why the pic you are sending is a photocopy, etc... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/21/2010 7:12:47 AM 
| OK, update (small one):<br/> <br/> Typed up the letter to Mr. Byrom, and I photocopied some pics of my Grandpa and sent them to Mr. Byrom, along with the letter. I am HOPING that IF Mr. Byrom does not have any pics/info on my Grandpa, that since it has been a great number of years, that if I sent him a picture of him, that MAYBE it would help with some memories.<br/> <br/> Anyways, that letter with pictures is in teh mail, and with how close Mr. Byrom is to me, he should probaly get @ Friday/Saturday of this week.<br/> <br/> <br/> Crossing fingers..... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''sstephenson''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/21/2010 9:30:21 AM 
| I dropped off a short letter and a copy of the photo that my uncle had of Mr. Byrom at the post office this morning.<br/> <br/> Steve <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/21/2010 12:24:31 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"sstephenson":</span><br/>I dropped off a short letter and a copy of the photo that my uncle had of Mr. Byrom at the post office this morning.<br/> <br/> Steve</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Awesome, thanks Steve for getting that in the mail so quickly! Who knows, maybe he gets yours and mine same day...again, many thanks for getting it out.<br/> <br/> Will keep you guys updated. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/21/2010 3:09:09 PM 
| Derrick,<br/> <br/> Did we ever determine what he was? Such as crew member, ground crew?<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/22/2010 10:26:20 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>Derrick,<br/> <br/> Did we ever determine what he was? Such as crew member, ground crew?<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> No sir, not yet. He said he would call me back once he went through his "book" he has complied together over the years, but have not heard back from him. If I don't hear back from him, I will call him...however, I want to wait until he has the letters that Steve and I sent to him. My reasoning is this:<br/> #1)When he gets the letters, he may feel "touched" by the sincerity, and really take us seriously, and then call me<br/> #2)When he gets the letters, if he does not call back, and I call him, at least he has something in his hand, to know that I am not just some "joe blow", and that I am willing to offer things to him, such as pics/info.<br/> <br/> In my letter, I included my phone number, my email address, and I also posted the websites address in my letter, adn told him that if he logged on, that this is a great place to find out about the 401st.<br/> <br/> <br/> So, when I call him (if he doesn't call me back), aside from asking what he did and when was he at Deenethorpe, what else would you like me to ask him Don? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/22/2010 12:04:15 PM 
| Again it depends on what he did as to what the questions are.<br/> <br/> If Maintenance then what planes did he  work on and nicknames if he knows them.  <br/> <br/> If Crew then what crew he was associated with and what position did he have.  Does he have a journal (above also) any records of the aircraft or pic's.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/22/2010 2:03:43 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>Again it depends on what he did as to what the questions are.<br/> <br/> If Maintenance then what planes did he  work on and nicknames if he knows them.  <br/> <br/> If Crew then what crew he was associated with and what position did he have.  Does he have a journal (above also) any records of the aircraft or pic's.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Got it. Thinking that he should get my letter @ Friday or Saturday, and if I don't hear back from him, will give him a call on Monday and check him out, and will ask him teh above questions. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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