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glmke
5/28/2012 1:59:06 PM | I have been looking for a photo of my Grandfather's crew. His name is LT. Leo F. Kelt and he was listed as a Navigator on Lt. clarks crew but i cant see a photo. is there any other web sites i can check. thank you
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donaldbyers
5/30/2012 6:21:49 PM | I have searched both the online database and the off line database and I can't find anyone named Kelt. Are you sure he was with the 401st Bomb Group? Or might he have been with the 401st Bomb Squadron under the 91st Bomb Group.
Don Byers
Group Historian
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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Paul Bellamy
5/31/2012 7:43:25 AM | Don, it'll be the photo that's missing from the page(s) below:
http://www.401bg.org/Site/Search/DBPhot ... 4&prmCat=2
/Site/Search/Photo.asp?pid=10404#menu
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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glmke
6/3/2012 10:30:32 PM | Not sure Don. tell you the truth i was watching the movie "Memphis Belle" and it got me to thinking about my grandfather. I googled his name and this site was the first one to pop up. was bumed when i saw his name listed as a crew member on LT. clarks crew but no photo. anyhow any info or direction you can point me to would great.
thanks Gene
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donaldbyers
6/5/2012 12:22:44 AM | Ok that helped me out. I have requested that this link for the photo be fixed. Since there is only a frew missions flown I will check our loading lists and strighten out the missing information. I'm still in June of 1944 working on info there. Hope to do this Tuesday sometime.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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glmke
6/5/2012 5:26:59 PM | thanks Don for the help. I look forward to learning more info on my Grandfather and the crew he flew with. I am a history buff and love reading the history of events my family was a part of.
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donaldbyers
6/6/2012 1:17:48 AM | I wasn't able to get to it today and Wed I have morning and afternoon appointments so will get to it then.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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glmke
6/6/2012 5:18:33 PM | Don thanks so much for the help!!! love the photo of the crew my grandfather was in. would like to find out more about the plane in the background of the pic. tried to find it under the airplane list but han no luck. thanks again you made my day.
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donaldbyers
6/6/2012 6:26:41 PM | Good news and bad news. Good news is the photo that bad news can you for certain Identify your grandfather in the photo? And here is the reason I have asked. Of those six missions he is not listed in any of the crew listings with Lt. Clark's crew that normally means that he was taken from that crew on arrival to the 401st BG. I will now have to go back and check the entire listing for the rest of the crews that flew missions in April 1945.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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Paul Bellamy
6/7/2012 11:31:24 AM | Thanks for getting the photo back up Don.
Unfortunately it's confirmed my suspicion that it would show a training crew in the USA...
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Shade Ruff
6/7/2012 12:09:09 PM | "Paul Bellamy":
Thanks for getting the photo back up Don.
Unfortunately it's confirmed my suspicion that it would show a training crew in the USA...
All the best,
Paul
Paul,
That's not necessarily a bad thing if, in fact, the depicted crew is confirmed to be a 401st BG(H) crew. The image of 1st Lt Stine's crew (614th Bombardment Squadron) which I have yet to provide Don is just such an image. Based on the B-17's large tail number in the Stine crew photo, it would appear it was taken while they were still stateside. Nine of the 10 crew members (including my uncle) are in it.
If obtaining 401st BG(H) crew photos is the goal, their sourcing (whether taken in CONUS or at Deenethorpe) should be a moot point.
Regards,
Shade Ruff
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glmke
6/7/2012 5:26:22 PM | ok so what does that mean? training photo? what resource can i use to find out more info.
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donaldbyers
6/7/2012 5:41:16 PM | Here is what I suggest,
Go to this web site http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-ref.html and follow the instructions for writing for military records.
National Personnel Records Center
9700 Page Blvd
St. Louis MO 63132
and they also have an online request just under this address and above the photo of discharge.
They will tell you that a fire destroyed a lot of records in the early 70's but they should be able to reconstruct enough to point us in the right direction. During war time anything could have happened. It's possible he was transfered from the training crew to another command before his crew was assigned to the 401st BG or upon arrival to it we just don't have all the records to tell us what happened yet.
The form you will need is the SF-180 and you can find them on line where you can fill it out and print it then sign and send it. I will still keep an eye out.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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Paul Bellamy
6/8/2012 7:47:21 PM | "Shade Ruff":
(quote="Paul Bellamy")Thanks for getting the photo back up Don.
Unfortunately it's confirmed my suspicion that it would show a training crew in the USA...
All the best,
Paul
Paul,
That's not necessarily a bad thing if, in fact, the depicted crew is confirmed to be a 401st BG(H) crew. The image of 1st Lt Stine's crew (614th Bombardment Squadron) which I have yet to provide Don is just such an image. Based on the B-17's large tail number in the Stine crew photo, it would appear it was taken while they were still stateside. Nine of the 10 crew members (including my uncle) are in it.
If obtaining 401st BG(H) crew photos is the goal, their sourcing (whether taken in CONUS or at Deenethorpe) should be a moot point.
Regards,
Shade Ruff(/quote)
Indeed, for the purposes of obtaining crew photos the inclusion of Stateside training crews is often the only way.
However, in this instance whilst the crew photo includes many of the crewmembers that ended up in the 401st, it has led us along a different avenue regards Gene's specific enquiry about his Grandfather. 😉
Before I go too far off track, while we haven't yet found any information on Lt. Kelt flying with the 401st, I'm pretty sure I've identified where the crew photo was taken at least:
There were two B-17Gs with the last four digits of the serial being 7120...
B-17G 42-97120 was a combat aircraft with the 95BG, and was lost in action in July 1944.
TB-17G 42-107120 however was a Stateside training aircraft, and was with the 236th Combat Crew Training School at Peyote AAF, Texas until April 1944 at least.
By 1945 she had been transferred to the 224th AAF Base Unit at Sioux City AAF, Iowa, suffering an unspecified mechanical failure resulting in a belly landing on the Yankton gunnery range in South Dakota on the 14th April.
Both Don and myself are checking through the loading lists for the period that Lt. Clark was flying with the 401st, and it appears he didn't have a regular navigator during that time, and Lt. Kelt doesn't show up on any of Lt. Clark's crew rosters. Neither does he seem to show up after a quick browse through the 612BG personnel in/out lists or in any of the other group load lists at the time.
The possibility exists that Lt. Kelt didn't transfer to the 401st with the rest of the training crew for whatever reason, so the search is now being expanded to include as many of the other 8AF bomb groups that we can find details of. If I can't find anything there, I'll just have to widen the net even further... 🙂
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
6/9/2012 8:30:25 AM | Not a problem, we have had several disappear for an unknown reason. But the good news is we know which one's they are and will work to get them back also. I am hoping to hear from the person that provided the names and the photo to me and find if there is anything else known of him. My hopes for them known anything are slim but can hold out hope until hearing from them.
Shade Ruff!! Now that you mentioned it where is that photo haha!!!
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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donaldbyers
6/9/2012 9:01:28 AM | Lt. F.W. Clark Crew.
Standing left to right:
Airplane Commander, Lt. Frederick W. Clark
Co-Pilot, Lt. Willam J. Falsey
Bombardier, Lt. Raleight B. Stapleton
Navigator, Lt. Leo F. Kelt
Engineer, Corporal Robert E. Sands
Kneeling left to right:
Ball Turret Gunner, Sgt. Robert P. Holmgren
Waist Gunner, Cpl. Roland W. Murphy
Radio Operator, Cpl. Victor T. Griseto
Tail Gunner, Cpl. James G. Martin
Until I get a better photo I took the small photo down.
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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Paul Bellamy
6/9/2012 6:47:11 PM | Great photo of Dynamite John there Don, albeit on the small side, but with what appears to be 116 mission markers!
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
6/10/2012 3:43:04 PM | I know Paul, will try and make it bigger soon.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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win-win
6/10/2012 6:02:35 PM | Hi gents - thoughts for finding more info;
1. About the 2-photos just above that Don posted:
- - The 'small' one definitely looks like it's of an operational Crew & A/C (ie: at Deenethorpe); and
- - The 'large' one definitely looks like it's of a training Crew & A/C (ie: at one of the many USA Combat Crew Training Schools).
2. About the 'large' photo:
- - Note there are 9-Crewmen (not 10) which may mean they trained late '44-'45 (when B-17 Crews were reduced by 1-gunner since the Luftwaffe was all but 'whipped');
- - Whoever has the original of the large photo, a large-file scan of it (and PhotoShop tweaking, which I'd be glad to try) may reveal which Officer pictured is wearing Navigator's 'silver wings' (which has a globe in the center);
3. That Apr.14, 1945 1st mission of the 612Sq. Lt. Clark Crew's makes it seem likely the 'large' photo was taken around the time of the Clark Crew's graduation from their stateside training together (as a crew) at a Combat Crew Training School (CCTS) - in '45. So it seems also likely, from Paul's A/C info, the Crew trained at Sioux City, S.D. (At-least that's a starting point).
4. CCTS Records and resources: The Air Force Historical Research Agency (www.afhra.af.mil) has microfilm records of a lot of the WWII CCTS, which are available for sale in CD or (16mm) microfilm roll forms. Some AFHRA CCTS records found to-date indicate some CCTS facilities did photos; others not; and some had detailed Crew rosters, and some not - it's sort of like Forrest Gump's 'box of chocolates'. Navigating AFHRA's Website is tough (for me), as is finding what (microfilm) rolls have what - like '44-'45 AAB Sioux City, SD CCTS info, but ask, and here's two suggestions:
- - Contact AFHRA, by letter or E-mail with as much info about your Grandfather, the training crew photo, the Clark' Crew and dates. The AFHRA's little staff take 'forever' to answer, but they try. It may pay to phone them - they may be able to give you more info quicker, even if it's only what's best to include in your request.
- - Quicker, probably, is contacting the Air Force History Support Office by E-mail ("AFHSO Research" <afhso.research@pentagon.af.mil>) and ask the same as you'd ask AFHRA, and include the photo. The AFHSO has the same AFHRA resources (CDs/microfilm), but usually gets back to you very quickly.
5. For this, or NPRC research like Don previously wrote about, having your Grandfather's serial number is paramount. If you have that already, include e it in your inquiries to agencies; if you don't have it, there are steps you can take to get it - the NPRC being a prime source.
Sorry so long-winded, but good hunting 'glmke', and keep in-mind there are others looking, just like you, so keep us all posted - it helps to 'compare notes'.
Win Bryson
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Paul Bellamy
6/12/2012 3:09:38 PM | I've been looking in the 612th Squadron's monthly records to see who was in Lt. Clark's crew on arrival, and I haven't been able to find any of them as yet.
Annoyingly, although the April 45 and March 45 transfer lists are in the files, those for January and February 45 seems to be missing...
PB
Paul Bellamy
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win-win
6/12/2012 4:47:20 PM | Looking closer at the 'Clark' Crew photo above, the two front-row center men are both Radiomen -
they're both wearing the triangular 'Communicators' patch on their unifroms' right sleeve.
My Uncle, also a Radiomen (in a 6/1944 replacement Crew that formed and trained together at the 225th CCTS Rapid City, SD), had gone to Aerial Gunnery school (Yuma) after Radio School. His Replacement Crew (10-men) had 2-Radiomen also, in his case the E/TT gunner. I'm not sure how or who decided which of the two qualified Radioman became the Crew's Radioman.
Win Bryson
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donaldbyers
6/13/2012 5:50:37 PM | Just found out today that Lt. Felt didn't fly any missions. He broke his arm on the concrete. And your right Paul those records are missing as I was looking for them also.
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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donaldbyers
6/13/2012 8:14:11 PM | I also noticed that the 4/4/1945 mission loading lists don't show a Clark crew listed on it. So I have no idea how this mission was posted.
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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