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Phoenix
12/17/2007 3:31:05 PM | Okay guys here we go, one thing that has been frustrating me since my interest in the 401st and Deenethorpe began is the location of the squadrons on the base and dispersed areas.
Firstly on what parts of the airfield were the individual squadrons dispersed? For some other bomb groups this type of information is reasonably easy to obtain but I am struggling with Deenethorpe. From the famous January 1945 photo you can reasonably guess where about the 615th were dispersed. From Georges' book on the "Maiden USA" it's reasonable to amuse the dispersed area of the 614th, but what about 612th and 613th?
Secondly barrack locations, Robert Grilleys' book has the 613th located at site 4 or as referred to on the ministry plan site 9, reasonable but Mark Brothertons photos locate the 612th on this site? Robert puts the 612th at site 5 or from ministry plans site 10, he then locates 614th at site 3 communal. Now I realise that communal was the intended use and things may have altered but the buildings don't seem to be sympathetic to barrack use. He then has the 615th barracks at site 2 communal, same argument applies. So what of ministry plan sites 7 and 8 which are barrack sites? who lived there?
So I find it all very confusing someone out there, Paul, maybe, must know the true locations for squadron dispersal and barrack accomadation. Help please.
All the best
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
12/17/2007 4:11:05 PM | This is something that's been bugging me for some time too. 😉
Dispersal locations:
(Those we know from various documented sources)
Using this diagram for numbering, we can see there were a total of 50 dispersals following the addition of the 3 spectacle areas and the lonely 3 at the NW end of the airfield.
614 BS: North end of the airfield, specifically Dispersal No.3
(From the 12th June 44 accident report)
615 BS: Control Tower area, specifically Dispersals 29-32.
(from the Snow Photo)
I guess we'll just have to go through every dispersal photo we can find for ones that have both identifiable ground features AND squadron codes in shot. 😉
Regards the living sites, that's a little trickier.
Usual routine at many 8AF bases was to use the former WAAF sites to house ARC and WAC personnel.
Something to work on over the winter methinks.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Paul Bellamy
12/17/2007 8:25:40 PM | Just as an aside, the late Mr Hardesty's photo shown below is apparently of the 614 BS billet site;
After careful examination of the AM Site Drawing the only place this photo could have been taken is facing the western entrance to Site No.7, which was on the north side of the road in Upper Benefield village itself.
I've highlighted the buildings in the photo to illustrate this:
From the AM Site Drawing;
Building 317: Picket Post. Temporary Brick.
Building 318: Latrine, Sgts. Temporary Brick.
Building 319: Barrack Hut, Airmens. Nissen.
Building 344. Ablutions, Sgts and Airmen. Temporary Brick.
The arrangement and construction of each fits the site plan perfectly.
One squadron down, 3 to go. (plus the support units...... ) 😉
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
12/18/2007 5:46:48 AM | Paul,
You have tidied up my thoughts nicely there, as you say just need the rest of the jigsaw. Talking to Graham on remebrance Sunday about this subject he voluteered that when he has asked veterans in the past a vague wave of the arm is sometimes the best you get, I guess this will be a tricky one!!
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
12/18/2007 9:06:49 AM | Cheers Dale.
(By the way, I'll get your copies of the full site plans to you at the first Historical Society meeting in the new year.)
Something that may be of use is a list of the billet types on each dispersed site.....
Living Hut types in use at Deenethorpe, for easy identification in conversation:
Nissen = Corrugated metal, semi-circular.
BCF (British Concrete Foundation prefab)= Concrete slab walls and roof, with supporting pillars internally.
Jane's = copy of Laing plasterboard hut.
(AM Site numbers in all cases below.)
Site 4 (WAAF Communal + Quarters)
Nissen x 2 (inc 1 subdivided Officers' Qtrs)
BCF x 4
Jane's x 5
Site 6 (WAAF Quarters)
BCF x3
Nissen x2
Site 7 (Quarters)
Jane's x 11 (inc 7 Sgts Qtrs and 3 subdivided Officers' Qtrs)
Nissen x 22
Site 8 (Quarters)
Jane's x 26 (inc 8 Sgts Qtrs and 4 subdivided Officers' Quarters)
Nissen x 19 (inc 1 subdivided Officers' Quarters)
Site 9 (Quarters)
BCF x 9
Jane's x 4
Nissen x 24 (Inc 8 Sgts Qtrs and 9 subdivided Officers' Qtrs)
Site 10 (Quarters)
Jane's x 4 (inc 1 half-length hut)
Nissen x 40 (inc 9 Sgts Qtrs and 7 subdivided Officers' Qtrs)
Total quarters sites with BCF Hutting: 3 (sites 4, 6 and 9)
Total quarters sites with Jane's Hutting: 5 (all except site 6)
Total quarters sites with Nissen Hutting: 6 (all sites)
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
12/18/2007 10:14:19 AM | Paul,
That's good look forward to meeting you I've now moved so a meeting is a better option than delivery. Didn't know about the Janes buildings though so once again you come up trumps with new info you must tell me more about them before the forum plays up again!!!!
All the best
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
12/18/2007 3:15:06 PM | Regards Jane's Hutting I hadn't come across them anywhere before either, but they are referred to as "to Laing Design" in many cases on the AM Plan.
Fortunately, there is a single interior photo of one in the NA gallery:
I say that as it's obviously not a Nissen, and the BCF huts had an almost flat roof.
For comparison, here's a few shots of our restored Laing Hut at Twinwood Farm. Note the roof trusses are more complex on the Laing.
Interior
Before:
After:
Outside
Before:
During (showing the timber frame the tarred plasterboard is fixed to):
After:
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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EDanaII
12/18/2007 3:31:56 PM | "Phoenix":
... Talking to Graham on remebrance Sunday about this subject he voluteered that when he has asked veterans in the past a vague wave of the arm is sometimes the best you get...
I suspect that this is because the vets, when visiting Deenethorpe, have no frame of reference to work with, all of it being, essentially torn down.
I also suspect that if you give them a model or, even, Paul's "Virtual Deenethorpe" to work with, it might sparks some memories.
I've actually been trying to talk dad into visiting the 8th Air force Museum in Atlanta, Georgia. They have a 1/72nd scale Deenethorpe there. I wouldn't be surprised if he could find his way around it.
At least, I hope he could. 🙂
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Phoenix
12/19/2007 12:18:48 PM | Hi ED
That's fair comment, my own memory of some of my short term postings is somewhat hazy! Still it is frustrating for us budding historians I guess we would dearly love to have everything in place. I hope you get your dad to Savanah. I would love to go one day but believe it or believe it not for a 26 year Royal Air Force veteran I hate flying so we'll have to see. Try and milk your dad for some info on locations if you can I bet Paul and myself will really appriate any gen we can get.
All the best
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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EDanaII
12/22/2007 5:06:27 PM | I'm actually trying to talk him into going to the 2008 reunion. Problem is, he's reluctant, in part because, I'm sorry to report, he's just getting old and tired; traveling can be a burden for him. That said, if we can get him to the reunion, then we may also try and take the 300 mile side trip to Atlanta to see the exhibit. I'm tempted to take a tape recorder with me if we do. Should I succeed, I'll happily clue you and Paul (and anyone else) in on what is learned.
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Paul Bellamy
12/24/2007 7:07:44 AM | Having looked again at the photo's of the Deenethorpe Diorama in Atlanta, it only seems to cover the area from the control tower to the technical site, not the entire base.
In 1/72 scale the entire base really would be huge! 🙂
(I'll get my calculator out later and work out just how huge it would be.)
TTFN,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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EDanaII
12/24/2007 10:51:06 AM | I realize, of course, that it's not the whole base. However, it would still give the Vet's viewing a good frame of reference and spark, possibley, some memories. At the very least, it never hurts to try. 🙂
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Paul Bellamy
12/28/2007 8:32:35 AM | I'd better get on with building the other dispersed sites for the Virtual Deenethorpe then. 😉
Current thinking, weighing up all info at the present time:
(AM Site numbers as usual)
Southern Dispersed Sites
Site 10: 612th Bomb Squadron (probably).
Site 9: 613th Bomb Squadron.
Site 3: Southern Communal site plus dining hall (1000 men), CO's Quarters, Base Chapel, 2 clubs/messes etc..
Eastern Dispersed Sites
Site 7: 614th Bomb Squadron.
Site 8: 615th Bomb Squadron (probably).
Site 2: Eastern Communal site with base water tower, dining hall (1000 men), 3 clubs/messes, powerhouse etc.
Site 4: Unknown units.
Site 5: Sick Quarters.
Site 6: Unknown units.
I would suggest, mainly due to not having enough barracks left over, that the ground support units' accommodation was mixed in with the Bomb Squadrons' accommodation.
Back to the 3-D model. 🙂
TTFN,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
1/27/2008 2:34:14 PM | I have it on reasonabley good if not faultless authority that the hard standing of "Betty J" IN-K 613th was on the southern end of the base along side the A427 close to where the memorial now stands. So I'm going to stick my neck out and say the 613th aircraft dispersals were in this area. Go on Paul prove me wrong!!!
Cheers
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
1/27/2008 2:38:45 PM | How about I supply photographic evidence to prove you RIGHT? 😉
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
1/28/2008 3:02:58 PM | You do that and my circuits will burn out!!!!
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
1/28/2008 3:21:12 PM | I present Photo 65433B:
Pulling up the line for that photo from my index....
44-6113 IN-R The Bandwagon No2 613th Bomb Squadron. Roy Etters & crew. Photo taken 4 Nov 1944.
Due to how the treeline (behind The Grange) and therefore Hangar 1 line up, plus another Fort landing on Runway 33, the dispersal must be No.34 or 35. There's no taxiway behind the dispersal, so it can't be 37 or 38.
Photo 65747
42-31072 IN-K Betty J 613th Bomb Squadron.
If the hedgerow behind, and the style of hardstand, are taken into account, then Betty J is sitting on either dispersal 37 or 38 (The only loop-type ones in the 613BS area.
How's that? 😉
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
1/28/2008 3:26:02 PM | You would make a good car salesman Paul, I'll chalk that location up on the map.
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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win-win
3/11/2008 5:56:10 PM | After interviewing several 401BG Vets at Reunions, using the RAF Deenethorpe Base Maps 4227/44 & 4228/44, my sort-of-best-guess-arm-waving is:
- - 613Sq Quarters, located on the top of a hill, south and across the road to Benefield from the field, nearest Yokehill Farm. (In 1999, there were only a few (pre-fab concrete) buildings remaining, appearing to be on the original quanset hut floor slab/foundations;
- - 612Sq Quarters, Also south of the field, in a valley, between the road and the 613Sq. Quarters;
- - 614Sq. Quarters: (I have no idea).
- - 615Sq. Quarters: (ditto).
- - 614Sq. Dispersal area: the northeast perimeter road, near Bomb Stores (about 48-50, 1-10);
- - 612Sq. Dispersal area: Hardstands (about 12 to 22);
- - 615Sq. Dispersal area: Hardstands near the Control Tower and Tech Area (about 23-33); and
- - 613Aq. Dispersal area: Hardstands along the road to Benefield and toward the West hanger (about 34-47).
(There seem to be 50 hardstands - each Sq. needs 12, min.)
Again, only best-guessing.
Win
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Phoenix
3/12/2008 1:14:03 PM | Some time ago, somewhere, I remember Paul putting forward the case for the 614th barrack site being site 7 at the entrance to Benefield(now bungalows). Having spent a little while in study I'm going to agree with Paul and chalk it up on my plan.
Cheers
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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win-win
3/14/2008 3:41:02 PM | Dale:
I'll second your motion about Paul's 'evidence' - Site#7 = 614Sq...definitely.
Win
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Paul Bellamy
10/2/2008 6:45:38 PM | It's been a while, but there is progress on this..... : )
One of the things we hadn't established was what was where on which of the Communal Sites at Deenethorpe.
Of the two, one being south of the airfield on the road to Yokehill Farm and the other west of the airfield on the way to Benefield, there were certain places on each and not the other:
Gymnasium and Chapel: Southern Site.
Water Tower: Eastern Site.
CO's Quarters: Southern Site.
Squash Court: Eastern Site.
I was reading a bit more closely through the text in the first pages of the Blue Book while searching for names in the Combat Mess thread, and a few passages started things clicking into place (paraphrasing quotes slightly).
"....the PX opened in the NAAFI...."
"....NAAFI closed, reopened as the Red Cross Club...."
"May (1944).....Combat Mess "Herbie's Hash House" opened in No.1 Mess Hall, No.1 Communal Site...."
"Combat Mess....on same site as NAAFI..."
So from those we could theorise that No.2 Mess Hall became the Consolidated Mess, and that the NAAFI remained from where it was originally when the base was first built under RAF control until it was taken over by the ARC.
However, things are never that simple.... there was a NAAFI built on both communal sites.
I'll read through things again and see if I can glean any other gems, before comparing the interior photo's of the PX/Combat Mess/etc. with known building floorplans and see where things go from here.
Other things that cropped up were what various messes were used for generally in the 8AF.
Roughly it boils down to:
Combat Mess:
Originally for combat aircrews only, later some bases extended this to all NCOs, S/Sgts and higher ranks on the base. Usually had a seperate area for aircrew officers.
Officers' Mess:
Originally for all officers on the base, later primarily for staff and ground officers.
Consolidated Mess:
For all base enlisted men, this would likely be the largest mess hall on a base.
Some bases had a further mess hall for Station Complement personnel.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Paul Bellamy
10/3/2008 12:25:45 PM | I think I've tied down the location of the Officers' Club, or at least two rooms within it.
NARA photos 65516 AC, and 65729A AC show the Lounge of the Officers' Club, with the mission tally board and fireplace on the end wall.
This is a large-span Nissen hut, with two windows in the end wall. Through these windows can be seen the side of another large-span Nissen and a corner of the end of another large-span Nissen. Also, a couple of concrete fence posts can be seen through the right-hand window.
Photos 65730 AC and 65730A AC show the adjoining room. The Lounge is visible through a doorway in a dividing wall. two pairs of side windows with a stove are set into each side wall, with further fenceposts visible through a window on the right. Light shining onto the floor from a window out of frame behind the camera shows another end wall similar to that in the Lounge.
Searching the site plan for a suitable building to match this arrangement, I can only find one example at the moment, that being Building No.201, the Officers' Mess Annexe on the Eastern Communal Site.
Using Virtual Deenethorpe I inserted suitable windows into the end wall of this building, and through them can be seen.... the side of a large-span Nissen (Building No.191, NAAFI) and the corner of another, the western end of Building No.189 Dining Hall).
I'll carry on working through the Officers Club photos via NARA and the Blue Book and see what turns up.
TTFN,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Paul Bellamy
7/8/2009 3:11:45 PM | I'm looking at dispersal allocations at Deenethorpe again....
Before I start plotting aircraft to individual dispersals, I need to get a better idea of how many were available, and how many aircraft needed parking.
Should be simple, after all there were 50 numbered dispersals right?? As ever, it's not quite that easy. 😉
Here's the number of B-17s on the roster at Deenethorpe on two different dates:
15th September 1944:
612BS: 18
613BS: 16
614BS: 16
615BS: 18
Total: 62 aircraft
15th April 1945:
612BS: 15
613BS: 17
614BS: 17
615BS: 18
Other: 1
Total: 68 aircraft
Hmm, more than 50.
OK, of the 50 dispersals, 16 were of the "loop" type, which could amply accomodate two B-17s.
So that takes our 50 dispersals up to 66, fine for the 1944 allocation, a bit of a squeeze by 1945.
Add to that the visiting and non-combat aircraft and more room needs to be found.
Looking at the April '44 aerial photo there are a number of instances of two B-17s crammed onto the smaller "frying pan" dispersals, and I presume there would be at least one or two in the hangars for maintenence at any given time.
However, in the main the consensus of 614th dispersals being at the north end, 612th beside then down to runway 26, 615th around the technical site and control tower and the 613th along the southern and south western sides on the airfield seems to just about fit.
Back to the files again, to try to make sense of this apparent chaos. 😂
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Phoenix
7/9/2009 4:24:07 AM | Paul,
All the best with this project, I reckon we have just about got the Squadrons in the right places but individual aircraft will be fun :twisted: . I keep looking at certain photos that show 'greenery' in the background and wonder about any 'greenery' being around at the time in stead of mud 😮 Also in George Menzels book he has the dispersal indicated for 'The Maiden' so I wonder where he got that gen from ‽ Got to rely on any memories from the vets I guess.
Any road you just get 'Mary Alice' sorted first I'm sort of adopting her at the mo 😃 if I had the know how I'd post photos of the model I've build, with free hand nose art too. 😛
Yahoo
Dale
improvise, adapt, overcome
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Paul Bellamy
7/9/2009 6:53:48 PM | Ta Dale,
I've not looked at George's book for a while, but I have a nagging idea that Maiden USA's dispersal was No.5.
He included parts of various mission briefings/reports that included their taxying instructions, which give the hardstand number.
Oh to have access to the complete set of those records for the Group as a whole.. I'd have this sewn up in no time. 😉
Speak to you in the morning,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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