Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Hans Shull
On: 06/16/2004

Well,
I am almost ready to start applying the paint and markings on Heavy Date! I started to put the aluminum on the fuse last night so I need some info from the vets.

First I would like to know just what color of yellow was used on the tail marking? Was it chrome yellow or insignia yellow?

Also I know that the 612th letters are SC and the plane was T, but I only have a photo of the co-pilot side of the plane. How were the letters placed on the pilot side? SC to the front of the waist gun window, or to the rear of it?

And last, was there a standard size for the unit lettering? Were the SC and plane letter a certain size by SOP?

Thanks for the help! We are almost there and will see you all at the reunion!!!
Hans

Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: L.A. Mitchell
On: 06/16/2004

Hans, on B-17 aircraft...The letter "S" on the tail signified that it was being from the 401st Bomb Group.Other letters on the tail of a B-17 denoted it was from another Group. For instance..the 351st Groip at Polebrook had the letter "J" in the tail.Also FYI..the triangle indicated the on the tail shows that the air plane was in the first division..A circle indicated the 2nd division and aSquare indicate the 3rd division, .The first and third divisins were B-17 groups andthe 2nd division wa of B-24s.
The two letters lik "SC" indicated the Squadron and the other letter "T" indicated that particular airplane
So...if a ship was shot down..an observer could just haveto remember it was from a certain Division by the Triangle,a certain Group by the "S"..a certain Sqdn by the "SC" and the lette "T" , a certain plane.

I dont recall the height of the letters like "SC" and "T"...but they were taller than the Star/circle. The squadrn letters were in front of the Waist window and the Ship's letter was to the rear. Same on both sides of the aircraft

Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Hans Shull
On: 06/16/2004

Thanks you sir, very helpfull. From the photo I have I can measure the height of the waist gun opening and scale the letters from there. At least I know where to put the letters on the pilots side of the plane now.
Hans

Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Valerie Conley McAlister
On: 06/16/2004

Hans:

I am in Dayton and work at Wright-Patterson. The father of a friend is a volunteer in the restoration department at the Museum and I will call him tomorrow and get the answers to your questions and then post them on here for you.

Valerie

Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Scott McElvain
On: 06/17/2004

Hey Hans! The plane model I had made of Heavy Date is still in Cheyenne, but I remember that the SC was forward of the side window and the T was toward the tail on both sides, so it read SC T on the pilot's side and T SC on the co-pilot's side. I'm assuming the guy in Florida that did it knew what he was doing, but he didn't have your commmitment to detail.

P.S. Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Scott McElvain
On: 06/17/2004

But...... Any photo of the right side of a 401st plane should solve that.

Re: P.S. Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Hans Shull
On: 06/17/2004

Thanks all.
I think I have a handle on it all now. I used the side photo and measured the waist windo height and scaled that back to full size. Then I scaled that down to 1/9th so it matched the model. Then did the same thing on the letters on the plane. They came out to a full size of 30" tall and 3.3" tall on the model.

Does 30" full scale sound right for the lettering?

Still trying to find out the proper color yellow for the tail stripe.
I'm going to mock the lettering out tonight and see if it looks right.
Hans

Re: P.S. Re: Color and markings question

Posted:
By: Win Bryson
On: 06/19/2004

The National Archives' photo 65531AC shows "IN-L", landing at Deenethorpe, co-pilot's side view, wheels down.  It's an 'early B-17G" (camo paint) and with no tail 'stripe', just the 'triangle-S', with serial number below, and 'squadron formation letter' below that. Reading the fuselage markings from tail-to-nose, it's: "L"; waist gun window; 'star'; and "IN".

Another National Archives' photo of "IN-L", A-27177AC, pilot's side view, shows the fuselage markings, reading front to back: "IN"; Star"; waist gun opening; "L". The tail markings look the same, left or right side view.

Just to 'confuse' things a little more, National Archives' photo 5253AC, showing a large formation, pilot's side view, has a silver 401BG B-17G in the foreground with fuselage markings, reading front to rear (pilot's side view): "Star"; waist gun port' "IW"; "G".  This aircraft has the tail-stripe.  Its serial number on the tail looks like 2107084.

And on National Archives' photo 65514AC, of silver 401BG B-17Gs lined-up on their hardstands, shows the pilot's side view of another silver B-17G with the tail stripe. The serial no. looks like 338610. Its left-side fuselage reads, front to back: "Star"; waist gun port; "SC"; "V".

Caveat: Late model B-17Gs had the waist gun windows staggered - the early models had them back-to-back.  But I don't know which side was forward, and if that affected the 'squadron/formation' lettering locations or not.

I don't have any info on paint colors.

Win